Reminds me of a rather disturbing shirt I saw on a teenager yesterday that read “US Marines your best friend or your worst enemy”

....with friends like that enemies might be welcomed.

I’ve heard about this for awhile now and was wondering when it was going to be released…I few weeks ago CBS evening news had done a little blurb about it right before signing off w/o follow-up or postings on their site…I have been trying to find credible evidence on this for awhile..seems it’s out now…..sad

My understanding is this isn’t just some he said/she said stuff. My understanding is that the women/children were put into a seperate room and killed..in other words they knowingly did it…I can hear someone saying now how “they were hiding insurgents” or such but that’s the same mentality that had gotten 2 planes flown into the Towers (pause for dramatic effect)....

And then two headlines down is airstrike casualties of civilaina Afghans…I’ve personally seen some ugly aftermaths of airstrikes in the Balkans in my enlistment…Airwars sux for the bombed…This is the problem with turning from the Taliban in Afghanistan to Iraq….we now have a much more unstable place than it had to be…proves the incompetence of the US govt..

It’s certainly positive that this is being investigated. Hopefully this will help the public understand exactly what it is that militaries do in wars.

If any of thes eguys are responsible for unecessary killings of civilians they should be put away. The US military needs to set an example of these guys.

If any of thes eguys are responsible for unecessary killings of civilians they should be put away. The US military needs to set an example of these guys.

Justice should begin at the top of the chain of command.

Take a few hundred thousand largely poor, generally poorly educated young men. Teach them to kill automatically and inculate them with a massive emotional dependence and psychic connection to a military organization. Dump them in a hostile foreign country where the people hate them and where danger is ever present. Encourage them to dehumanize their opponents (fuck the hajis!), who incidentally are indistinguishable from the general population. Give them a pointless mission fraught with danger.

And then, cop surprise and shock when a few of them go haywire, court-martial the triggermen and give them lenient sentences, and continue business as usual.

God, the military mentality makes me sick. It’s like Bizarro World with guns.

“Take a few hundred thousand largely poor, generally poorly educated young men. Teach them to kill automatically and inculate them with a massive emotional dependence and psychic connection to a military organization. Dump them in a hostile foreign country where the people hate them and where danger is ever present. “

Snark, you are showing your ignorance or perhaps simply you want to pin everything on the government. Most soldiers don’t kill civilians, their income stateside is absolutely irelevant. Some the best soldiers are poor.

You are just shooting in dark.

It’s probably true, most soldiers don’t kill civilians. Most of them are honestly trying to do a decent job. However, given tha training, the mental conditioning and the physical circumstances, it hardly surprising that a few soldiers go nuts and start killing anyone in their path.
It’s always been that way. In every war in human history, some percentage of the soldiers have killed civilians. It’s a function of the way the military works, as Snark mentions. It’s the logical result of dehumanization.

Income is relevant, considering the fact that income and education is often related. People who are uneducated have fewer options and thus are easy targets for military recruitment and conditioning for complete d

You are just shooting in dark

at least unlike yourself he’s not shooting “blanks”

Continued (I was unaware that there’s a limit on these posts):

... dependence on military thinking.
If you have nowhere to turn but the military, there’s a risk that you become a soldier first and a human being second.
Education gives you another choice, a possibility for short-circuiting this process. It makes you aware that you are not just a soldier. Of course, this is a tendency, not a definite rule. Exceptions are common.

Last, but not least, I’m afraid that Snark is right on his last point, that this will be blamed on the individuals only, and no thought will be given to the functions which promote this form of behaviour. Punishing the soldiers who did this will not stop it from happening again.

Looks like the same kind of frustration and doubt in the mission that caused the Mi Lai massacre. No way to tell apart foe from friend, guerrilla and infiltration. Loosing the peace and knowing it. It’s no excuse but very symptomatic of the weakness of command. If things follow the same path as in Viet Nam … Lts are next on the list.

This story is not going to go away. Here is my GNN — L.A. Times version
I think it’s worth following this one closely.

Sounds like they really lost it once they seen their comrade get killed.

So what are the Bush kids doing this weekend? Partying I would guess.

For me, this incident throws a huge suspicion over a lot of thoe other “death squad” massacres that have been reported. One incident like this, conducted my soldiers, makes me think that some of those other mass killings may just have been perpetrated by the same people and covered up by the overseers.

This really bothers me.

Ignore my bad spelling…just rolled out of bed…

I really wish IsratForever would sign up to the military himself and actually GO OVER THERE and then he can be the shining beacon of freedom and democracy and protecting innocent lives (and not oil) and so forth. But we all know he’d never do such a thing, and would rather send mentally disturbed soldiers to do the dirty work while he bangs the drums of war.

Oh, here’s a hint: Vietnam. And no, the demographics for military recruits haven’t really changed much since then, in fact probably worse now given how stretched the army is.

Looks like it might be a good idea for civilians to report insurgent activities rather than sit by and watch them plant IEDs’.

“there’s a risk that you become a soldier first and a human being second.” Luke, it’s not a risk. The reality is that is PRECISELY what military training regimes aspire to. The worse offender is probably the Marines. Recruits have it hammered into them to eventually become nothing more than killing machines, and to reduce people to “the target” or “the enemy” – DEhumanization is the whole point of their “training”

Looks like it might be a good idea for civilians to report insurgent activities rather than sit by and watch them plant IEDs

on some level it is hard to disagree with that..but it is a mentality that is nothing but a cycle of violence and comes to no good end.. children though have nothing to do with reporting insurgents..

here’s a demographic breakdown on military deaths in the US by location:

Here

Marines are fighting troops. They are not trained in nuances; their jobs is to attain military objectives through use of lethal force. Winning the peace is more the department of Special Forces. They know the language, customs and how to attain respect and mutual trust. They should have had the overall mandate of providing a framework for practices in occupation.

If there hadn’t been such a fuck up at Abu Graib, then the loss of the moral high ground would not have had this damaging effect on discipline. Prisoners should have been treated with respect, kept in custody no longer than required and allowed visits by one or two relatives on a regular basis.

A parole system should have been developed in conjunction with Islamic law and the cooperation of mullahs. Some released detainees would have broken their parole conditions; but think of what a sworn oath taken on the Coran can mean. If you cannot see the sense of it, then the meaning of our own oaths as witnesses in our own court system crumbles down.

Beating the crud out of an indoctrinated person is a waste of time. It’s like beating your own kids to get them out of a cult or sect. It doesn’t work. There is a job description for what produces results : deprogrammer.

For once, I largely agree with you Israel.

The leaders should be held accountable of course, but the leaders did not force anyone at gunoint to commit atrocities. At best, soldiers can go AWOL or apply as concientious objectors, or frag their commanders, as thousands did during Vietnam. At least, soldiers can act according to the law, and do their best to avoid civilian casualties. The above is what soldiers do at their worst, and individuals are always accountable for their own actions, regardless of military propaganda. I don’t care if these troops were all poor, minority orphans from the ghettos, there’s no excuse for mass murder. None.

None. Amen to that.

This story is not going to go away

I hope you’re right. American’s level of cognitive dissonance is so high, I find it hard to imagine most Americans accepting that our vaunted military does much aside from hand out candy to kids and take out “islamofascists” who “hate us because we are free.” If this story gets anywhere, it won’t be long until we’re told that it was only a couple of sinister bad apples who infiltrated the military just to make us look bad, and most will people believe it. Here’s hoping I’m wrong.

“or frag their commanders, as thousands did during Vietnam. “

You need a reality check on that one. There were about 10 incidents that might have been attempts to kill officers. Probably no more than in the big war.

baccus, do you want your country to lose in Iraq?

Heh… they’re already ‘loose’ in Iraq, ISF.

This seems to be shaping up as another ‘bad apple’ ruse, as far as I’m concerned. Yes, these crazy marines involved in these killings should be held accountable, because they are clearly responsible for a massacre – a massacre, which signifigantly enough, doesn’t serve any clear objective. It is always a good source of PR for the brass in Washington to crucify underlings when it suits their interests – a show of insincere good faith to placate their image consultants and psuedo-liberal constituents.

What this reprimand does, however, is cover up several other important facts. First… this isn’t the only report of US forces involved in a massace – there was another in which marines stormed a mosque and killed close to thirty unarmed civilians, execution style… and then their was Falluja. Second, there are hundreds of similar murders being carried out by Shiite deathsquads under the stuardship of the US-funded Interior Ministry (which, unlike this particular incident, are aimed towards an actual goal: the disintegration of Iraqi secularism into a sectarian civil war). You will also notice (or not… if you pay too much attention to this article) that none of THESE culprits are being punished (let alone investigated) for their crimes – which are often more heinous than those carried out by this rogue, stressed out group of jarheads. Finally… as the Geneva Conventions dictate, this is a prime example of a war crime that stems from the SUPREME war cime – namely, the crime of aggression towards a sovreign nation – which all other war crimes are understood to stem from.

So… yes, it’s good that this group of criminals will be punished for their behaviour… but it’s important to put it into context.

The problem is the dehumanization of the military. Apparently it makes it easier to kill the enemy. It also makes it easier to kill any brown-skins when you get back. Or your family and kids. Or anyone.

How about this: Create a military force whose soldiers aren’t trained to dehumanize the “enemy”. How about you train soldiers to help people instead of killing them? There’s a reason the body has such a strong physiological reaction to killing another human…perhaps we should harness that reaction and push harder to fix problems instead of exacerbating them.

Oh wait…solving problems doesn’t line the pockets of the Republicans…I guess my solution will just go unheard…

“The problem is the dehumanization of the military. Apparently it makes it easier to kill the enemy. It also makes it easier to kill any brown-skins when you get back. Or your family and kids. Or anyone.”

“brown-skins?”

This is obviously not your field, so why try and sound like you know what you are talking about.

baccus, do you want your country to lose in Iraq?

Lose what, exactly? Its moral compass? It’s sense of decency? Its democracy? I define “my country” as a democratic republic united in 1776 by the principles of the US Constitution, where citizens are afforded equal protection under the law, equal opportunity to influence the government, the power of the government over its citizens is limited and opportunities to succeed are available to the lowliest citizens. That’s what I’d like to see emerge triumphant. If winning in Iraq or winning in the “GWOT” means we have to abandon any of the above, then I’d rather the government lose.

The military code for land warfare states that once a combattant is wounded or unable to continue fighting, he is entitled to the same medical attention as your own troops and has to be protected as an individual with the same diligence as your own.

IdiotForever: Yes, brown-skins, because that’s the way the soldiers view them. Should I have used a different term instead? “Towel-head”? “Camel-jockey”? That’s the way they’re conditioned to think, because it’s a lot harder to kill them if you actually have to see them as an individual. Besides, how many white people are actively targetted in Iraq?

You’re quite clearly an idiot that cannot infer context from what he reads. I suppose most people learn that around grade 1 or 2.

“IdiotForever: Yes, brown-skins, because that’s the way the soldiers view them. Should I have used a different term instead? “Towel-head”? “Camel-jockey”? That’s the way they’re conditioned to think, because it’s a lot harder to kill them if you actually have to see them as an individual. Besides, how many white people are actively targetted in Iraq?”

Conjecture, no facts within.

The fact that you think that US soldiers are racists is about you. And you don’t matter in this case.

“The military code for land warfare states that once a combattant is wounded or unable to continue fighting, he is entitled to the same medical attention as your own troops and has to be protected as an individual with the same diligence as your own.”

And that is what the US forces do. They have treated thousands of Iraqis including terrorists.