I think this goes back to the 50s (maybe even earlier when China was a U.S. ally in WWII). My parents used to let my sister and I decide on Chinese food, Italian food or Deli on the night of the week, once a week usually, when we would all go out to eat. Even though the family was entwined with Sicilian and Hebrew mafia connections, my parents (and the tasty, inevitable extensive variety of Chinese dishes) would influence us to choose the less expensive fare a relatively inordinate number of times. Now, in looking back (and even thinking about my four-times-a-week Chinese takeout lunches when I’m in New York), I think soft power motives may have already been conceived by some myth-making China central intelligentsia. The girls are great, too and it’s not hard to get along with the guys. I’d include them in the Beijing Olympic theme for humanity — “One World, One Dream,” or do I mean that I’ll let myself be included.

“...the Beijing Olympic theme for humanity—“One World, One Dream,”...”

That theme scares me. The Chinese are amazingly good at absorbing cultures and claiming them as their own. Its quite frightening in my opinion.

American cultural imperialism has accompanied its military-politico and economic hard power almost non-stop for more than a century now. Asia has never come close to feeling intimidated by any kind of Chinese hard power like Latin America has from the U.S. for more than a century. I am becoming more and more suspicious of those projecting China as a threat.

Dont be naive. The Chinese govt is a threat. All governments are, but the Chinese govt takes the cake. And the Chinese ppl are just nationalistic enough to do anything the govt said, declare war on anyone without question. Hell I can barely get my students to ask questions in my English Lit class. Thats a scary combination. I would imagine if China was in a war, there would be 99.9%approval among the people.

And “American cultural imperialism “ has nothing on Chinese cultural imperialism. Have you ever watched a “minority” performance or display here in China? I have, and most of the time its Han Chinese mutilating some “minority” traditional song into a shitty pop hit.

Ask one of your students is Ghengis Khan was Chinese….

“The girls are great, too and it’s not hard to get along with the guys.”

The girls are great (although fucking nuts) but many of the guys are just annoying, manipulative idiots. Ask foriegners getting into business in China what their worries here are and everyone I bet will have the worry of the Chinese ripping them off because a too many of the Chinese veiw other races of people as “a different kind of animal” (yes I have been told that). Hell I was once told that Chinese are more evolved as shown by them having less hair… and that’s the kind of shit the Chinese people are willing to believe from their government, and they are so well manipulated and sheltered that they have very little reason, in their minds, to doubt their government.

“Asia has never come close to feeling intimidated by any kind of Chinese hard power like Latin America has from the U.S. for more than a century.”

Because China has never had the power or the unity needed to become a major player in the power shifts here, it’s always been Japan and SK. However if you want to see examples of their “benevolence” take a look at Tibet or their enlightened view of how to deal with Taiwan….

“I am becoming more and more suspicious of those projecting China as a threat.”

China is a threat to many things around the world, some good some bad. Don’t get me wrong, for the most part I do like the Chinese but it scares the living shit out of me that this country is going to be the next world power….

“China has never had the power or the unity needed to become a major player in the power shifts here, it’s always been Japan and SK. However if you want to see examples of their “benevolence” take a look at Tibet or their enlightened view of how to deal with Taiwan.”

That’s a bit of a short term view Uberche. China is thousands of years old, and has certainly been the most powerful force in Asia in a number of periods. Under the Ming, they sent out huge trading fleets to Africa, India (maybe America) in the 14th and 15th centuries, yet did not seek to implant colonies, nor invade nearby countries to exploit them on a colonial model. One hundred years later, Spain, France, Britain, Portugal and Holland get in on the act and whoosh, there you have full blown genocidal colonialism.

I would also say that China-Taiwan relations have been remarkably peaceful considering a) the anger between Mao and Chiang kai-Shek and b) the manipulative position of the U.S. in massively backing Taiwan. Despite US meddling, relations are actually very good at the moment. Tibet, is another matter though.

In Chinese history, what strikes me is not how many foreigners China has enslaved and exploited, like Japan in the 1930s or Britain in India for example, but how many Chinese people have died rebelling against central authority or, under Mao how many Chinese died in the quest for ‘progress’ as he defined it. I don’t see China as a global imperialist threat, nor as likely to invade its neighbours, not yet anyhow.

I’m with Lot here, the realistic position is to watch China and work with its people and government. The hysterical position is to cry out against its expansion and arm neighbouring nations to the teeth to deter it.

“Under the Ming, they sent out huge trading fleets to Africa, India (maybe America) in the 14th and 15th centuries, yet did not seek to implant colonies, nor invade nearby countries to exploit them on a colonial model. One hundred years later, Spain, France, Britain, Portugal and Holland get in on the act and whoosh, there you have full blown genocidal colonialism.”

So are you suggesting that the Chinese communist government is what? Benevolent? Based on 14th century Chinese policy?

“I would also say that China-Taiwan relations have been remarkably peaceful considering a) the anger between Mao and Chiang kai-Shek and b) the manipulative position of the U.S. in massively backing Taiwan. Despite US meddling, relations are actually very good at the moment.”

The ONLY reason the Chinese govt didnt take over Taiwan 50 years ago was because they couldnt. And now that they both have nukes, its obviously impossible to invade. (Unless they all want to die)

“Tibet, is another matter though.”

Indeed it is. And so is XinJiang and Inner Mongolia, and Qinghai, and Gansu, and, well there are a lot of places where the people are (or were before the government instituted its massive migration of Han Chinese to take over the areas by sheer population) not Chinese, and dont want to be.

Just because China claims something to be a part of China, doesnt make it so, and just because they arent using guns but instead are using massive migration doesnt make it non-threatening. Ask a Uigar in Xinjiang…

China is not a benevolent country. And believing it is based on the quality of blow jobs one is getting from the Chinese prostitutes like I imagine to be in Lot08’s case, is really stupid.

“I don’t see China as a global imperialist threat, nor as likely to invade its neighbours, not yet anyhow.”

And I take it you dont live near China? I know for a fact that the Mongolian people are terrified of China. And the Chinese did briefly try to invade Vietnam.

And Japan? If I was Japanese, fuck, I would be worried. The Chinese hate them like you wouldnt believe.

So are you suggesting that the Chinese communist government is what? Benevolent? Based on 14th century Chinese policy?

No. It’s not, but I’m confident that China won’t seek to expand beyond it’s current borders because of the internal colonialism that it has been practicing for hundreds of years and the instability that has caused.

Thats my point. China’s not going to invade Mongolia. China is still invading China, as you say, and its having a very difficult time doing that.

And the Chinese did briefly try to invade Vietnam.

and where did that get them? It lasted one month. The Chinese invaded to kick Vietnam out of Cambodia, which they failed to achieve, and then retreated.

Are they likely to try it again? Not all nations are as stupid as the US. China invaded and lost badly. It didn’t take them fifteen years to work out it wasn’t going to work.

And Japan? If I was Japanese, fuck, I would be worried. The Chinese hate them like you wouldnt believe.

True. But has China ever shown any interest in invading Japan? Why would they? Japan has no natural resources, no farmland, no oil (except maybe under the sea).

The ONLY reason the Chinese govt didnt take over Taiwan 50 years ago was because they couldnt. And now that they both have nukes, its obviously impossible to invade. (Unless they all want to die)

The Chinese government did take over Taiwan fifty years ago, just the Nazi influenced KMT variant, who imprisoned 140,000 Taiwanese who disagreed with their policies and killed 30,000 who rose up against them in 1947.

For Memnoch01 to go from my statement that “the girls are great” to his sexist fantasies about my personal life is an unscrupulous ad hominem attack, and uberche’s response to “the guy’s are easy to get along with” with his charges of business ripoffs is just racist nonsense. People are climbing all over one another to do business with Chinese and Chinese/foreign-partnered corporations.

There has been a manipulative, redneck appealing, ugly anti-China script that has circulated in neo-con and neo-con junior circles ever since the collapse of the USSR. It would be much worse if it weren’t for their also having cranked up the terrorist threat. There are also pseudo-liberals, neo-liberals and even environmentalists who wish to ingratiate themselves to neo-con carrot-givers and who do so by playing the anti-China rhetoric card.

Lot08: “People are climbing all over one another to do business with Chinese and Chinese/foreign-partnered corporations.”

Yeah, and do you think its because of Chinese business mens winning personalities? Or really any business man’s….

And the “unscrupulous ad hominem attack” was actually a joke. But whatever.

Szamko:

“Thats my point. China’s not going to invade Mongolia. China is still invading China, as you say, and its having a very difficult time doing that.”

China is very much not having a difficult time invading China. Far, far far from it. And most Chinese believe that Mongolia is an “inalienable” part of China. If they find anything useful in Mongolia, my money is on invasion.

I can’t find any contemporary voices saying that Outer Mongolia is an inalienable part of China. Taiwan yes, but not Mongolia. This is an interesting commentary on how the myth of ‘one [Han] China’ has developed to see the borders of the Qing as, essentially the borders of greater China. This greater China idea is then portrayed as the ‘natural’ borders of China and justified by a warped version of history. Is this what you mean?

If so, then it is an historical misconception being used to further Nationalist ends, I agree, but I cannot find anybody suggesting that the state of Mongolia is ripe for invasion or somehow naturally belongs to Han China. After all, it was invaded in the 17th century by Manchu Chinese, not the Han, and shares not ethnic or even cultural inks to modern China, unlike Taiwan.

From Mein Kampf through Better Dead than Red to You’re Either with Us or Against Us, fascist imperialist wars over just the past two generations have been accompanied by rhetorics of superiority and debased diatribes against purported evil, threats and counter-cultures.

I feel the Vietnam War, with millions mass murdered by carpet bombings, napalm and agent orange, the funding and training of right wing murderers from the Shah to the Somozas and the Duvaliers and the anti-Palestinian and anti-Cuban policies of most of the post WWII period and much more represents part of the career of fascist American policies. This, even while I believe most Americans are decent people.

So, when I am confronted with even sometimes trivialized versions of possible war-drum beating or apparent compatible rhetorics, I fail to merely cringe.

“This greater China idea is then portrayed as the ‘natural’ borders of China and justified by a warped version of history. Is this what you mean?”

Yes.

“...and shares not ethnic or even cultural inks to modern China, unlike Taiwan.”

There are places near Beijing that shares not ethnic or even cultural links to modern China. Sharing common links is obviously not the reason for the “One China” idea.

Power is.

“I can’t find any contemporary voices saying that Outer Mongolia is an inalienable part of China.”

Well, it may not be official Communist party doctrine, (yet) (as Tibet, xingjiang and Taiwan are) but I believe the general consensus among the Chinese is that Mongolia should belong to China.

The problem is the hyper nationalism that exists here. It is truly remarkable. I dont think Lot08 truly understands. You would really have to live here, (outside the foreign bars in Beijing or Wang Fu Jing) to understand.

When I was in Mongolia, nearly everyone I met who could speak English told me that they were very very afraid of China. In fact, one lady, a university professor told me that most Mongolians believed that China was poisoning their food. She told me that since the collapse of the soviet union the majority of imported food started coming from China and cancer rates have gone up.

Lot08:

“So, when I am confronted with even sometimes trivialized versions of possible war-drum beating or apparent compatible rhetorics, I fail to merely cringe.”

Is that directed at me saying I believe the Communist Chinese party to be dangerous?

Well, it may not be official Communist party doctrine, (yet) (as Tibet, xingjiang and Taiwan are) but I believe the general consensus among the Chinese is that Mongolia should belong to China.

Do you know of any other evidence for this?

When I was in Mongolia, nearly everyone I met who could speak English told me that they were very very afraid of China. In fact, one lady, a university professor told me that most Mongolians believed that China was poisoning their food. She told me that since the collapse of the soviet union the majority of imported food started coming from China and cancer rates have gone up.

That is scary, but what does it tell us, that the post-communist transition in Mongolia has been hard, and that China has taken up the slack in providing aid? The cancer rates might be due to the shedloads of pesticides used by Chinese agriculture, that seems plausible (though the Soviets weren’t much better).

Clarify for me the One China phenomenon. You say that there are no official statements claiming Mongolia for China, which suggests to me that the Communist Party are not pushing the hyper-nationalist theme to its full extent. That would be pretty dangerous for them I think. You also say that One China is about power, which I’m sure is true. But is it more about the frustrations of many Chinese when they see massive wealth being distributed less and less fairly?

Is One China a grassroots movement amongst Han Chinese, a topdown movement generated to defuse internal tensions or a bit of both?

“Do you know of any other evidence for this?”

Nope. I’d do a poll but I’d rather not get deported or arrested.

“The cancer rates might be due to the shedloads of pesticides used by Chinese agriculture, that seems plausible (though the Soviets weren’t much better).”

I’m there there are many reasons why the cancer rate has gone up. I pointed this out merely to show that not all China’s neighbours feel the same way as Lot08.

“Clarify for me the One China phenomenon. You say that there are no official statements claiming Mongolia for China, which suggests to me that the Communist Party are not pushing the hyper-nationalist theme to its full extent.”

Yeah.. I dont work for the communist party, so I have no idea what their official possition on Mongolia is. Regardless of my not knowing the official stance on Mongolia, rest assured that they are very much pushing the hyper nationalist stance. It is the foundation of this country.

“Is One China a grassroots movement amongst Han Chinese, a topdown movement generated to defuse internal tensions or a bit of both?”

It is definetly a top down “movement”. Most things are here. I’d hazard to guess all things.

Thanks memnoch. I appreciate your first hand testimony is a darn sight more useful than any press coming out of China. I still disagree that China is necessarily an expansionist threat though, mainly because of the internal contradictions. Having said that, it could take an unsuccessful war to bring down the Communist Party.

“I still disagree that China is necessarily an expansionist threat though”

I dont believe that China is an “expansionist” threat either. Aside from Mongolia, which every Chinese person I have brought the topic up with has said that it should be a part of China, and there is the eastern part of Russia that the Chinese government recently stated was (or should be) a part of China. But realistically, they would only invade if there was some resource that they wanted and couldnt get on thier terms. (and as they grow more powerful, thier terms will become more and more unreasonable)

But China is definetly an imperialist threat.

“China’s a great place to to buisiness, just don’t make any funny arm movements like those Falun Gong wackos or you’ll be in a labor camp before you can say “Mao”

Still, I don’t think China’s an expansionist threat the way the US or the Soviet Union was. China would be happy to invade Mongolia or Taiwan, but it’s never, in its 1000s of year of history, has China been interested in expanding beyong its immediate borders. The Chinese discovered America first, but didn’t decide to colonize… the Chinese just have no interest in anything thats not next to China. They’d never, say, invade a small oil producing country half-way around the world…

Chinese are too good at business to waste business relations on military adventurism.

“uberche’s response to “the guy’s are easy to get along with” with his charges of business ripoffs is just racist nonsense. People are climbing all over one another to do business with Chinese and Chinese/foreign-partnered corporations.”

Some people were climbing all over themselves to do business with Saddam, didn’t make him good people. Not comparing Chinese to Saddam, just saying having many business partners does not mean they are wonderful people. If you want to know why everyone wants to do business look at what’s happening here, it’s the next world power in terms of military power and economic, the money flowing into here is obscene, everyone wants a piece of it.

“There are also pseudo-liberals, neo-liberals and even environmentalists who wish to ingratiate themselves to neo-con carrot-givers and who do so by playing the anti-China rhetoric card.”

And than there are those of us who live here for years, study China and actually learn what we’re talking about first hand who can see that there is a threat here, is it as bad as the 50’s rhetoric? of course not, it never is but China is not a happy wonderland filled with smiling happy people. Most people here are the same as Americans, they just want to live and let live but they are, like Americans, VERY easily fooled into whatever those in power want them to believe. Add into that their view that foriegners are not like them or, as some actually believe, lower than them on the evolutionary scale and that’s pretty fucking worrisome in my opinion.