US vs. Afghanistan = winter vs. spring

I wonder if anyone is starting to realize that this was, all along, the biggest threat that an invasion if Iraq posed… that, in order to dispose of a dictator and hold a country, the West is about to lose the most important battle in it’s existence.

Anyone who thinks through the domino effect of a Taliban victory in Afghanistan over NATO forces is kidding themselves if a shiver doesn’t run right down their spine…

I can see this is gonna be a fun decade…
We’ll never win over there. And now it’s too late to pull out, because good ol’ Bushie has pissed off so many people. Bleh.

“What can your government do for YOU?”

Anyone who thinks through the domino effect of a Taliban victory in Afghanistan over NATO forces is kidding themselves if a shiver doesn’t run right down their spine…

Agreed… although I believe that the ramifications could be minimized slightly if the situation in Afghanistan were being handled differently.

the West is about to lose the most important battle in it’s existence.

I wouldn’t go that far.

The West picked a fight with religious fundamentalists who’s neighbors, supporters ands co-religious states control the world’s energy supply, and their loss in this conflict is going to send a green light to every nutcase considering the takeover of their respective Islamic republic. Personally, I could see an emboldened Iran, Pakistan subjugated under Taliban-like rule, the house of Saud choosing between money (us) and self preservation from everyone around them, and other fun stuff…

Maybe I’m taking this too far, but I do see this as a great big deal…

The Osama-effect wins.

Or you could see the major metropolitan areas of the greater Middle East turned to glazed over parking lots after things turn really messy.

This is a war, though severely mismanaged, that “can’t” be lost.

Sometimes no Peace

P.S. Mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder. The Taliban resurgence has been procured as in result and with the indirect proceeds from the phoenix like rise from the ashes of the Afghani opium market, under the watchful eye of the U.S. CIA and NATO.

Ever Wonder if U.S. tactics in this “war on terror” have been purposely ineffectual in recognition that in the end the use of WMD’s will be necessary to achieve the level of destruction that will force the hundreds of millions who inhabit this oil rich region to relinquish their claims to these assets.

I’d say that the West is about to lose the most important battle in its existence… but I don’t think that it is against Islamic fundamentalism – rather with its own rampant consumption patterns.

That battle will be won through Demand Destruction.

The “West,” particularly the U.S., is in for several rounds of downsizing ala Survivor.

Sometimes no Piece

Time to be wiser. I can’t help pondering … if all those sent overseas had been prepared in Arabic language skills and cultural background … the US would probably be out by now.

Truthcansuk sez : ‘The West picked a fight with religious fundamentalists who’s neighbors, supporters ands co-religious states control the world’s energy supply, and their loss in this conflict is going to send a green light to every nutcase considering the takeover of their respective Islamic republic.

Personally, I could see an emboldened Iran, Pakistan subjugated under Taliban-like rule, the house of Saud choosing between money (us) and self preservation from everyone around them, and other fun stuff...

Maybe I’m taking this too far, but I do see this as a great big deal...’

So what’s the solution? A beligerent U.S foreign policy helped create these fundamentalist dickheads in the first place and, like Pandora, it can’t close the box again.

So is the only solution military? Has it gone far enough that no-one can be reasoned with anymore?

I think everyone here is missing an important point. That middle eastern people are not crazy fundamentalists by nature and most of what you guys are afraid of is reaction to insane murdering policies by the ‘west’.

Left to itself I believe that the middle east would eventually stabilize and groups like the Taliban would be rejected.

The fear of a Islamic fundamentalism domino effect is just as stupid an idea as the fear of communism.

a round of applause for Mem, please. that pretty much cuts right thru all of the bs.

word up, Mem.

Faelnar – So what’s the solution?

I dunno. That’s why I’m not in charge, I guess…

A beligerent U.S foreign policy helped create these fundamentalist dickheads in the first place and, like Pandora, it can’t close the box again.

I agree with you. But knowing that doesn’t help the situation now. And yes, the USA backed the Shaw in Iran, but as soon as he was out the place got even worse…

So is the only solution military? Has it gone far enough that no-one can be reasoned with anymore?

In Afghanistan, i think it is. From what I understand Iran made a huge mistake after the Iran/Iraq war by pushing people to start churning out kids. These kids are looking at neighbors like Turkey, which isn’t quite such a fucked up place, and are wondering “why not us?”

Memn -That middle eastern people are not crazy fundamentalists by nature…

I agree. But their leaders seem to be.

The fear of a Islamic fundamentalism domino effect is just as stupid an idea as the fear of communism.

/me shrugs…

I’ve been stupid before. I’m willing to be way wrong on this one. In fact, I’m hoping to be…

I can see Iran finally getting a non-douchebag leader if the Iranians have their way. It would be about time, too… they’ve been through far too much since the removal of Moussadeq. And what a different place it could have been had Bazargan’s liberal, secular Gov’t had a chance…

I can see Pakistan getting through what’s going on right now so long as India doesn’t decide to capitalize on teh chaos… But again, I can only see really bad things happening if the Taliban ever took back control of Afghanistan.

Deleted cuz I gotta stop wasting my time with bullshit Western ethnocentrism like the kind Truthcansuk is spewing here.

Fuck Christopher Hitchens and the rest of the Islamophobes – look at the effect they are having on people.

heh…

Dear singh:

This one is easy. Just explain to me that, in the event the United States pulls out of Afghanistan and the Taliban takes it back, everything will be awesome…

And then, explain to me, in short words so I can understand, how Iran’s leadership isn’t a theocratic mess of repressive douchebags who would deny myself and many other people on this site the right to life for being an atheist?

You could go on to tell me how nice it is to be a woman in Saudi Arabia. Please. Set me straight? My ethnocentrism is blinding me here…

You could even tell me about Pakistan! Oh! Oh! You could explain to me how this is all going to turn out great! I mean, a nuclear state potentially falling apart? Please, help me to help you to help me understand…

You could even fall back on the classics, like how a womans right to self determination is a ‘Western Value,’ or how this is all the fault of the USA. I like that one.

On Edit: C’mon, waste your time! Liven the place up a bit! Things haven’t been exactly exciting around here lately…

always cracks me up how radical leftists who despise the influence of religion and fundamentalism on the state when we’re talking about the western world bend over backwards to forgive it when we’re talking about the middle east

(unless you’re talking about Israel of course)

Who is “bending over backwards” to forgive anyone? Why do you say things like that? I mean I suppose you are implying that Singh and I, who are the only ones on this thread that havent said “The taliban is evil” are somehow lumped into some imaginary group that cheers on the Taliban?

If you want to not sound like an ass, maybe give an example.

TCS, are you saying that if someone doesnt agree with your analysis and support of the war in Afghanistan they automatically support rape and murder?

For the record, I dont support the Taliban and I wouldnt want them to get back in Power. But I do understand that it is a problem made mostly by intervention of the greedy violent variety, and I further realise that the only solution for Afghanistan is one that is Afghani is origin.

I think we can all agree that bombing a violent fundamentalist idea that is largely a reaction from unprovoked bombing is not going to make it go away.

But I think we can all agree that stopping the violent greedy fuckers in government is largely impossible at this point so the most I can do is tell people who say that Canada, for fuck sakes, should be in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban are wrong.

If Canada wants to do anything good in Afghanistan it should work on trying to get Pakistan and the USA to leave it the fuck alone.

tmi…

So is the only solution military? Has it gone far enough that no-one can be reasoned with anymore?

I’m beginning to think that a Barack Obama presidency would send the right message that the U.S., finally, can be reasoned with. Sometimes symbols are really important.

Mem sez : ‘Then, the first god damned thing I am going to do if and when I get there, is set about learning Afghani, and finding out what they think.’

Someone just told me the official language of Afghanistan is Afghan Farsi – a dialect of what they speak in Iran. I think Pashtun is the other major language. There’d probably be hundreds of regional twists and turns, just like any other country in that region.

Chickenma sez : ‘I’m beginning to think that a Barack Obama presidency would send the right message that the U.S., finally, can be reasoned with. Sometimes symbols are really important.’

I really hope so. We’ve just got a breath of fresh air here in Oz via elections, and now the Kyoto protocol is going to be ratified, social spending will increase and all that happy stuff. With a major world player like the U.S getting such a different style of leader, that breath of fresh air could change things on a global scale.

All of Dubya’s deputy sheriffs are gone; Anzar (Spain), Berlusconi (Italy), Blair (U.K) and now Australia’s John Howard are gone Poland’s seeing a change of direction as well. Don’t forget though, that the pendulum has also swung back to the right in France (Szarkozy) and Germany (Merkel).

I really hope Obama can trump Clinton, and whoever the Republicans throw at him, and win. The world needs it!

Number5Toad sez : ‘always cracks me up how radical leftists who despise the influence of religion and fundamentalism on the state when we’re talking about the western world bend over backwards to forgive it when we’re talking about the middle east.’

My enemy’s enemy is my friend. Nah seriously, I look at everything now as versus U.S global hegemony. I hate religious fundamentalists of every stripe, but while they fight the invaders on their own turf, ‘that’s peachy’ as they say.

You need to look at the recruiting pool for these religious organizations. Both Christian and Muslim, you’ll find that alot of recruits come from dissatisfied lower class neighbourhoods. Jesus is friend to the friendless. Allah will provide in the afterlife. When you’re poor and almost living on the streets, these ideas can be intoxicating.

Improving these people’s lot in life so they don’t seek other alternatives is the way forward, not bombs!

The U.S. has not heavily invested in and interjected itself by virtue of its supreme strategic military power into the affairs of state in the greater Middle East in order to win hearts and minds.

This is about oil and gas and maintaining U.S. global economic and military hegemony.

Sometimes no Peace

As for simply looking for answers regarding Afghanistan:

But others said the problem is not Pakistan or a lack of military or financial resources in Afghanistan. It is the absence, they say, of a strategic plan that melds the U.S. military effort with a comprehensive blueprint for development and governance throughout the country.

“There are plenty of dollars and a hell of a lot more troops there, by a factor of two, from when I was there,” the former commander said. The question, he said, is “who owns the overarching campaign for Afghanistan, and what is it?”

Who is “bending over backwards” to forgive anyone? Why do you say things like that? I mean I suppose you are implying that Singh and I, who are the only ones on this thread that havent said “The taliban is evil” are somehow lumped into some imaginary group that cheers on the Taliban?

don’t kid yourself mem. i don’t think it applies to anything you said, and i can’t be sure about singh since he deleted his comments rather than stand by them, but you know damn well this site is crawling with people who think Sharia law is fine, women’s rights are a western concept that don’t apply to the middle east, and that, as you did in fact say yourself, if left alone the countries under radical Islamic law would choose a different path – despite the overwhelming evidence of history.

it is kind of funny that singh blames Hitchins for the bad image of Islam in the modern world rather than, you know, the Islamic nutcases who kill innocent people, and that you seem to think fear of islamic terrorists is as silly as fear of the communists, but if you want an honest reply to your question, i was just drunk and trolling. it was an indirect response to what i’m assuming singh said based on TCS’ comment that preceded mine.

I’m beginning to think that a Barack Obama presidency would send the right message that the U.S., finally, can be reasoned with. Sometimes symbols are really important.

you can’t possibly be serious. dude is already rattling his sword at Iran without being the front runner, and has said on more than one occasion that he can’t see a way out of Iraq by the end of his first term. there are no saviors among the politicians.

My enemy’s enemy is my friend

that’s exactly the attitude that got us into the global situation we’re in today. “gee this Mujahideen guys are pretty fucked up, but…well, they hate the Soviets almost as much as we do…guess they’ll be a good enough ally for now!”

Improving these people’s lot in life so they don’t seek other alternatives is the way forward, not bombs!

on that much we agree.

I think we can all agree that bombing a violent fundamentalist idea that is largely a reaction from unprovoked bombing is not going to make it go away.

are you still talking about the taliban here? you know that their rise to power had almost nothing to do with American bombs, right?

TCS, are you saying that if someone doesnt agree with your analysis and support of the war in Afghanistan they automatically support rape and murder?

Wow, Memn, that was truly deft… Suggesting that my position is one of “You either support my view or you’re evil.” Nicely played, old chap…

But I do understand that it is a problem made mostly by intervention of the greedy violent variety,

i don’t agree that the Taliban originally taking power had anything to do with this, but I do understand that you believe the USA is only in Afghanistan for ‘greedy purposes…’ Hey, have I mentioned that I don’t care why the USA is getting rid of the Taliban? Just that I would like them to finish the job?

One of the reasons that Iraq is such the shithole it is right now is directly because the USA bailed on the Kurds and others way back when, and didn’t finish Saddam off during Bush.v1 when it would have been far easier. I’d like them not to abandon the people they’re helping to rebuild Afghanistan.

And again, in case I’m not being clear, I don’t suspect that the USA is in Afghanistan for purely humanitarian reasons. That would be a stupid assumption for someone who has hung around GNN for this long. But I do want them to finish what they have started there, since not following through would be worse at this point…

I think we can all agree that bombing a violent fundamentalist idea that is largely a reaction from unprovoked bombing is not going to make it go away.

And yet, the Nazi party doesn’t run Germany anymore… And yes, they were in huge part a reaction to unreasonable sanctions after WW1 and not actual bombing, but still… food for thought…

That was probably too clumsy to be accurate, so let me be more pointed: Sometimes war does work…

But I think we can all agree that stopping the violent greedy fuckers in government is largely impossible at this point so the most I can do is tell people who say that Canada, for fuck sakes, should be in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban are wrong.

I’m sure we Canucks will fix everything, Memn…

ChickenMa – I’m beginning to think that a Barack Obama presidency would send the right message that the U.S., finally, can be reasoned with. Sometimes symbols are really important.

Democratic presidential candidate Illinois Sen. Barack Obama called not only for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, but a redeployment of troops into Afghanistan and even Pakistan — with or without the permission of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf.

“I understand that President Musharraf has his own challenges,” Obama said, “but let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.”

There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again.

sorry TCS. if you cited that, then you probably aren’t going to reject the framework of the argument.

this many years into the war and talking heads on both sides are still trying to sell the world on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. there has been no concerted effort to kill or capture the “alleged” 911 financier. so we thought we had him when a predator drone captured images of an Al Queda meet up that supposedly included bin Laden because one of the people in the crowd looked very tall.

maybe we should continue to kill tall Arab looking people until we get him.

is anyone better off than they were before the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, War on Drugs, War on Terror, and a plethora of operations that are still ongoing and fully funded?

it’s like buying a top of the line vacuum cleaner with a lifetime warranty on a 50 year stretch pay. what a deal!

after only a few months, the wheels have fallen off, the bag is ripped to shreds, the power cord is a shock hazard and you have to resort to physically picking up trash off the floor to force feed it into the cleaner inlet. none of the above are covered under the warranty, so if you want to fix it, you’ll have to pay additional exorbitant amounts of money

And the salesmen says. “...but hey, at least it sucks better than the old vacuum cleaner”.

“it is kind of funny that singh blames Hitchins for the bad image of Islam in the modern world rather than, you know, the Islamic nutcases who kill innocent people,”

Its kinda funny that there are over a billion muslim people in the world yet somehow it is acceptable for people in the west to call them nutcases.

Now before you get all defensive understand that I know when you say “Islamic nutcases” you mean the very very small percentage of muslims who want to create and live in fundamentalist states.

“and that you seem to think fear of islamic terrorists is as silly as fear of the communists”

Are you still trolling? Or are you honestly afraid of islamic terrorists?

Its not Hitchens alone who is responsible for the “bad image of islam in the ‘modern’ world” but a combination of a irresponsible media, basic racism and a few wacko’s running around in robes preaching hate. (besides the generally bad image ALL religions have to rational people that is)

I dont know if you have ever been to a muslim country that is not in the ‘modern’ world. They happen to take it personally.

THe ‘modern’ world has carried out violence against the non-modern world since the beginning of history. We dont give a shit when they complain because they dont have satelites orbiting the globe spewing out obnoxious venom while million dollar jets circle waiting for some kind of reaction.

I dont know about anyone one here, but I find the image of a bunch of Christians having a little group prayer session before they fly of to bomb the fuck out of people pretty fucking scary.

TCS, I dont know what Singh wrote but I am pretty sure he/she didnt say

“Your western ethnocentrism leaves you blind to the great and wonderful benifits of non-western ideas as.. ‘the taliban is awesome, Iran’s govt now is awesome, and they would kill you and I would like it. Being a woman in Saudi Arabia is fun and interesting and womans right to self rule is a western idea and totally stupid”

ANyways, I have to go to class, but what you wrote was pretty obnoxious.

Are you still trolling? Or are you honestly afraid of islamic terrorists?

i live in New York City, mem. there’s kind of a precedent here for people to actually fear Islamic terrorism.

personally, i’m no more afraid of Haji the Jihadi than i am of Ralph the Negligent Subway Operator or Steamy the Old Ass Steam Pipe, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is an actual, demonstrable pattern of violent behavior from Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists, where there was nothing but hype when it came to the Red Plague. comparing the two is pretty silly.

Its not Hitchens alone who is responsible for the “bad image of islam in the ‘modern’ world” but a combination of a irresponsible media, basic racism and a few wacko’s running around in robes preaching hate.

yet who does singh cite as the problem?

I dont know about anyone one here, but I find the image of a bunch of Christians having a little group prayer session before they fly of to bomb the fuck out of people pretty fucking scary.

i don’t find it any more or less scary than the image of a bunch of Muslims doing the same thing before sending some poor kid they recruited to blow up a bunch of people and himself in the process, before going home and beating their wives for showing too much ankle.

and thanks for proving my point after objecting to it.

So you believe 911 was motivated by Islamic beliefs?

“Fundamentalist Terrorists, where there was nothing but hype when it came to the Red Plague. comparing the two is pretty silly.”

Its silly because at least Russia, who by of course I mean, the Russian govt who are maybe 0.01 percent of the Russian population, at least had the means to attack the USA.

What point did I prove?

“i don’t find it any more or less scary than the image of a bunch of Muslims doing the same thing” that point? Because do we really need reminding of that? The TV can make that point well enough for me. Hell, I can go and rent a movie if I want that point drilled home to me in full colour. We have been living that point in the west since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Dubya – sorry TCS. if you cited that, then you probably aren’t going to reject the framework of the argument.

Just pointing out that Obama isn’t exactly the “message that the U.S., finally, can be reasoned with” that C-ma implied…

why does it always come down to 9/11 when we talk about terrorism? am i expected to forget the embassy bombings in Africa, the attack on the Cole, the 93 attack on the WTC, the beheading of Daniel Perl, Pan Am 103, TWA 800, the threats on JFK or the threats on the subways or the threats on the bases in Jersey or….

motivation is one thing, action is another. yes, i believe that there is justified anger against the US government by the Islamic world. no, that will not stop me from condemning their acts when they kill innocent people.

Its silly because at least Russia, who by of course I mean, the Russian govt who are maybe 0.01 percent of the Russian population, at least had the means to attack the USA.

and yet, they never did. Islamic terrorists on the other hand…

ok.. now this argument is getting stupid.

Who’s more evil, the US govt or Islamic Terrorists…

And now I am late for class… shit.

Lets all just get along for the kids sake.

Who’s more evil, the US govt or Islamic Terrorists

do we really have to pick one?

go to class, slacker

Since you’ve pointed out the blood on the hands of the Islamic terrorists, may as well make a cursory examination of a few of the grievances of the other side.

April 18th, 1988 Operation Praying Mantis

On 3 July 1988, Vincennes, under the command of Captain William C. Rogers III, shot down an Iran Air Airbus A300B2 over the Strait of Hormuz, killing all 290 aboard including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children.

See Iran Air Flight 655.

The Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters at the time. According to an investigation conducted by ABC News’ Nightline, decoys were set during the war by the US Navy inside the Persian Gulf to lure out the Iranian gunboats and destroy them, and at the time USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian airliner, it was performing such an operation.

damn, it’s almost like neither side is innocent or something

there are sides?

No, there are positions.

Unfortunately for them, the “Islamic terrorists” are for the most part positioned directly above or in close proximity to the majority of the remaining oil reserves and we noble westerners are jockeying for position to take it from them.

Sometimes no Peace

NATO should have opened negotiations with Mullah Omar back when they had a better hand. Karzai wanted that.
It is possible the opium lords don’t want a peaceful solution.

Is it possible that the CIA and NATO aren’t truly interested in a peaceful solution and that is why the opium trade has resurged under their watch?

Battle hardened troops and bases in Afghanistan will be an asset should the order come to invade or otherwise attack Iran.

NATO won’t attack Iran. If the neocons think otherwise I suggest drug tests.

Toad The Wise – am i expected to forget the embassy bombings in Africa, the attack on the Cole, the 93 attack on the WTC, the beheading of Daniel Perl, Pan Am 103, TWA 800, the threats on JFK or the threats on the subways or the threats on the bases in Jersey or…

I miss the days before 9-11, when every conversation on GNN ended with an argument about Jews…

“I miss the days before 9-11, when every conversation on GNN ended with an argument about Jews…”

ha! And you said nothing changed after 911!

NATO won’t attack Iran. If the neocons think otherwise I suggest drug tests.

While NATO may not directly attack Iran, once a response is provoked, NATO troops in the region will have little choice but to defend themselves if attacked as well as protecting their interests in the continued flow of oil from the Persian Gulf, which holds the possibility of bringing them into naval operations against the Iranians.

The largest NATO force in the region is of course the Turkish army, which is already poised for action and possible invasion into Iraq. In the event of Iranian actions against Iraq, it is likely that the Turks would be called upon to come in to help stabilize the situation.

I miss the days before 9-11

9-11 Changed What Now?!?

Memn – ha! And you said nothing changed after 911!

Damn you, Memn!!!

On Edit: I will concede that the trolling tactics on GNN changed after 9-11, throwing my entire theory into the toilet. You are correct in observing that, after 9-11, people began to talk about 9-11…

/me hates you people…

Just in case ya’ll miss it…

Pakistan’s Taliban at the Gates

… The dozens of drug-funded villas — “narcotechture” in expat parlance — that have sprung up around foreign embassies in Kabul’s Sherpur district are a testament to the untouchable status of former warlords. Corruption among police and local authorities is worst in southern Afghanistan, where drug profits are highest. Despite his repeated public denials, President Karzai’s half-brother Wali, head of Kandahar’s provincial council, continues to be accused by senior government sources, as well as foreign analysts and officials, as having a key role in orchestrating the movement of heroin from Kandahar eastward through Helmand and out across the Iranian border ...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2933472.ece

“I’d like them not to abandon the people they’re helping to rebuild Afghanistan.”

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry

Dis – I don’t know whether to laugh or cry

heh…

On Edit: Again, I don’t expect altruism from the U.S. Army, or those in charge of it… but so long as women can walk outside and silly religious laws won’t end in the deaths of people for infractions against Sharia law (like allowing children to name a teddy bear Mohamed in Sudan…) then they’re doing something right…

Not everything, but something. Is it so hard to recognize that?

Military occupations do nothing to bring an end to peoples adherence to sharia law and will probably play into the hands of the fundamentalists who will cast themselves as saviors. Remember how the Taliban rose to power in the first place…..

Truthcansuk seems determined to avoid the reality of the true motive and means of the U.S. invasion and the impact the NATO occupation is having on the people of Afghanistan.

He continues to cherry pick extreme examples of Islamic extremism taking place even outside the countries in question and applying incidents as though they were universal.

Do the same with the U.S. and you could try to lead one to believe everybody with a pro-life position on abortion is willing to bomb an abortion clinic.

Need I remind him that U.S. involvement in Afghanistan began as a brutal air war that drove populations out of their cities, villages and of course their homes including the use of cluster bombs as winter approached coupled with a massive “humanitarian effort” whereby the military was air dropping Afghan refugees food packages that closely resembled unexploded cluster bombs.

How many children died as a result of that “mistake.”

Then there’s the occupation. The Taliban had all but wiped out the growing of opium poppies prior to the 2001 invasion. Now the war/drug lords reign supreme.

Opium amounts to half of Afghanistan’s GDP in 2007, reports UNODC

Some things are worse than strict rules about naming your “teddy bear.”

How’s this for anecdotal “evidence.”

Afghan boy dancers sexually abused by former warlords

Maybe Sharia law is an improvement over lawlessness or the “law of the jungle.”

Peace,

GW – Truthcansuk seems determined to avoid the reality of the true motive and means of the U.S. invasion and the impact the NATO occupation is having on the people of Afghanistan.

No, he just prefers to stop arguing about why the USA went there, and to talk about what they should/can do while they are there… Them and the rest of NATO...

They’re there. Period. Time to start a constructive dialog instead of forever trying to get the US Troops out of there, because Bush has us at the point where not supporting the effort there has worse potential consequences than if they stay… You could say the same about Iraq…

He continues to cherry pick extreme examples of Islamic extremism taking place even outside the countries in question and applying incidents as though they were universal.

Sorry, but no. This isn’t cherrypicking, these are examples of what life is like under a repressive, theocratic gov’t… Getting fucked over for inane breaches of Sharia law is a universal in such places…

Do the same with the U.S. and you could try to lead one to believe everybody with a pro-life position on abortion is willing to bomb an abortion clinic.

Actually you couldn’t. The difference being that people who kill abortion doctors in the West are considered crazy, they are charged with a crime, and they are sent to prison. In any country living under an Islamic theocracy it would be agents of the State killing the doctor…

Need I remind him that U.S. involvement in Afghanistan began as a brutal air war that drove populations out of their cities, villages and of course their homes including the use of cluster bombs as winter approached coupled with a massive “humanitarian effort” whereby the military was air dropping Afghan refugees food packages that closely resembled unexploded cluster bombs.

OMFG! You are totally right! I forgot that the USA sucks ass!

Need I remind him (you) that I oppose the USA dropping bombs on innocent people? What I support is the Taliban being permanently removed from power. This shouldn’t be too hard for you to grasp, really…

Then there’s the occupation. The Taliban had all but wiped out the growing of opium poppies prior to the 2001 invasion.

So? Seriously, I’m surprised anyone brings this up… would you rather the United States and NATO go all ‘Plan Columbia’ on their asses? I care about as much about Afghanistan selling opium as I do BC selling quality pot… This is the last site I’d expect to find someone supporting a war on drugs anywhere…

Now the war/drug lords reign supreme.

Then Afghanistan needs to develop a police force. The UN should be called upon to assist if they want help.

Some things are worse than strict rules about naming your “teddy bear.”

No, they are not. Shit like this is the calling card of a totalitarian state, where the slightest infraction could get you killed, regardless about whether or not you even realized it was an infraction. People selling/smoking opium is not as bad as that…

Maybe Sharia law is an improvement over lawlessness or the “law of the jungle.”

Interesting. Sharia law being better than no law whatsoever. Wonder what the anarchists on this site would say to that? Personally, I’m for democracy… yourself?

Democracy? Yeah maybe.

Where would one go from the U.S. to find that?

Peace,

People selling/smoking opium is not as bad as that …

Opium for illegal use is generally converted into heroin, which doubles its potency, and taken by intravenous injection, which more than doubles the quantity of drug entering the body.

In 2002 the price for one kilogram of opium was $300 for the farmer, $800 for purchasers in Afghanistan, and $16,000 on the streets of Europe before conversion into heroin.

20/1 markup from Afghanistan to Europe could be regarded as “profitable.”

“No, he just prefers to stop arguing about why the USA went there, and to talk about what they should/can do while they are there… Them and the rest of NATO...”

I dont know whether to laugh or cry!

TCS, all they are going to do while they are there is bomb and kill people. Maybe they will build the odd school. Maybe they will hold the odd press conference talking about how they are spreading freedom.

They are not there to do anything but to secure a country for capitalist exploitation. Sharia law just gives them a nice feel good reason for being there. Its bullshit, and the last thing they are going to do, aside from the above, is continue until they have what they want.

And you could say that the same applies for the Taliban, they they wont stop until they have what they want. Which is true of course, with one very very glaring difference. The Taliban are Afghani and at the end of the day, they can at least speak the language of the country.

Not only is it NOT Canada’s responsibility to save them from themselves, but it is an impossible task. The sooner you and the Canadian govt realises this the better.

Its funny because you would be the first one to say the govt we have is our own responsibility, that bitching without voting or activism is bullshit. And I agree, but for some reason you feel that the Afghan people are somehow not responsible for their own fate but need NATO to help them, that they cant make their own decisions. I really dont know how you and a great amount of people in the west came up with this idea.

If the Canadian govt slowly slid into fascism then would you be calling for a united foreign coalition to begin bombing Canada?

I doubt it, but for some reason the Afghan people in your esteem are incapable of doing it themselves. Sure they face some serious odds, but if the west (including Pakistan) leave them the fuck alone, I dont think it would be too long before some of their shit was sorted out.

hey mem, how do you feel about intervention in Darfur?

What I support is the Taliban being permanently removed from power

How does that translate into Pashtun where taliban means students?

How much would Mullah Omar have to modify austere sharia to make it acceptable to outsiders?

Memn – I dont know whether to laugh or cry!

Laugh, Memn!

Its funny because you would be the first one to say the govt we have is our own responsibility, that bitching without voting or activism is bullshit. And I agree, but for some reason you feel that the Afghan people are somehow not responsible for their own fate but need NATO to help them, that they cant make their own decisions.

Memn, I don’t live under an insane totalitarian theocracy. My wife can walk down the street and not get arrested for not completely covering her body. My daughter won’t get thrown in prison if she meets a male co-worker for coffee. I can utter the words ‘maybe Muhammed isn’t all that great.’ out loud and not run the risk of being stoned by court order.

I’m simply in favor of helping Afghanistan get a democracy set up, and then they have a way to chose whether or not they want to be some mullah’s bitch. At that point, I hope everyone washes their hands of it and wishes them a fine day. But until that happens we really have no way of knowing WHAT Afghanistan wants, do we?

If the Canadian govt slowly slid into fascism then would you be calling for a united foreign coalition to begin bombing Canada?

If I woke up tomorrow and suddenly Canada was exactly like life under the Taliban? Damned right I’d hope for help. And just to be clear, the uncomfortable truth is that there’s not really a historical precedent for outing fascists besides war…

I doubt it, but for some reason the Afghan people in your esteem are incapable of doing it themselves.

You are so right, Memn. I think they’re pussies for not standing up to a repressive regime that would have made Orwell shiver…

Lday – How does that translate into Pashtun where taliban means students?

You have a point. we’re going to have to have all of those ‘Death To the Taliban!’ t-shirts re-screenprinted before we hand them out at the Madrasses….

The point is from Kung Fu Tzu (Confucius).
Once there is war then peace requires negotiation
and negotiation requires shared meanings of words,
hence rectification of language is the first step.

What does democracy mean?
If that is the objective but it means different things to different people
then there will be no peace.

As I recall this is the 4th Anglo-Iraq War.
Allies varied, but they started in the late 1830s
coincident with the Opium Wars.

Plus ca change ...

N5Toad: women’s rights are a western concept

but only really for the last 100 years. 100 years is a very short time in the story of human beings. From their point of view all we have done is replace women’s veils with bikinis and thongs. Not saying I agree with that . . . . .

the whole thing appears to be about ‘usury vs. non usury’ money more than any mythical ‘rights’

Fealnarr: All of Dubya’s deputy sheriffs are gone; Anzar (Spain), Berlusconi (Italy), Blair (U.K) and now Australia’s John Howard are gone Poland’s seeing a change of direction as well. Don’t forget though, that the pendulum has also swung back to the right in France (Szarkozy) and Germany (Merkel).

Swiss caught in German/U.S. pincer movement?

I’m simply in favor of helping Afghanistan get a democracy set up, and then they have a way to chose whether or not they want to be some mullah’s bitch.

what if they don’t want ‘democracy’

“Memn, I don’t live under an insane totalitarian theocracy. My wife can walk down the street and not get arrested for not completely covering her body. My daughter won’t get thrown in prison if she meets a male co-worker for coffee. I can utter the words ‘maybe Muhammed isn’t all that great.’ out loud and not run the risk of being stoned by court order.”

TCS, you dont live in Afghanistan. What you described is a part of their culture, and as such is their responsibility to mold it into what they collectively want. Of course for the women it will be difficult, most likely many of them will die. I am not being cold, but very realistic. Because, as we can see, the alternative, which is bombing them into submission kills people too. Either way people are going to die. I respectively suggest that if they do it themselves less people will die, and it will happen quicker. (and with pride, not hatred)

In every culture, or subculture there are things that are taboo. I am sure, even in your small town there are things you could say that could get you beat up. Its a fact of life. And if you disagree with these taboo things in your own culture it is your responsibility to find change or put up.

I think we can agree that people naturally will reject other cultures judgement. Especially when the culture that is dictating the terms is so different.

I think were we disagree is on how effective NATO can be. The only way there can be peace in Afghanistan is if no foreign powers have political or military control over the country, and it is exactly that which NATO wants. So until they give up wanting control, there will not be peace. And the best way for them to give up control is to leave the country.

I am not Muslim, and not from the Middle East, but for some reason I really feel bad for them. I was watching the movie “In the valley of Elah” last night. And so many of the western paradigms are so shockingly offencive that I really cant understand how we as a culture cant see them.

Its kinda funny being out of the country, immersed in another foreign culture, how easy it is sometimes to see how retarded your own culture is. I tells ya, I get into some seriously angry arguments from my friends back home sometimes.

TCS, you said “But their leaders seem to be.”

But you know, that our leaders are 100 times more crazy. They are leading the world into destruction. The islamo facists are a reaction to them.

Its a beautiful day today, I am going out plotting out my scheme to steal the torch when it makes its way through Nanjing later this month. Wish me luck!

re.: I really hope Obama can trump Clinton, and whoever the Republicans throw at him, and win. The world needs it!

LOL

Here’s what’s prolly gonna happen . . . and why/how

On a recent visit to China, Musharraf invited the Shanghai Cooperative Organization to sort things out in Pashtunlandia . Which absolutely makes a LOT more sense than having North America and Europe in there cocking things up. Depending on what your goals and objectives REALLY are.

OPEN QUOTE from das wikie

On July 17, 1973, Daoud Khan seized power from his cousin (and brother-in-law) King Zahir [in Afghanistan]. Departing from tradition, and for the first time in Afghan history, Daoud did not proclaim himself Shah, establishing instead a republic with himself as President.

In 1974 Daoud signed one of two economic packages that would enable Afghanistan to have a far more capable military because of increasing fears of lacking an up to date modern army when compared to the militaries of Iran and Pakistan. For every night for two years Kabul International and Baghram Air Base received a great flow of Soviet advanced weapons to rapidly increase modernization of a Soviet-trained military.

END OF QUOTE got that? The first president of Afghanistan INVITED the Soviets into Afghanistan as a buffer against Pakistan and Iran.

But that was Urban Afghanistan. NOT RURAL Afghanistan.

But das plot dickens OPEN QUOTE

The regime of President Mohammad Daoud Khan came to a violent end in the early morning hours of April 28, 1978, when military units loyal to the Khalq faction of the PDPA (People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan) stormed the Presidential Palace in the heart of Kabul.

Once in power, the party moved to permit freedom of religion and place agricultural resources under state control. They also made a number of ambitious statements on women’s rights and waived the farmers debts countrywide. The majority of people in the cities including Kabul either welcomed it or were ambivalent to these policies. However, the secular nature of the government made it unpopular with religiously conservative Afghans in the villages and the countryside, who favored traditional Islamic restrictions on women’s rights and in daily life.

Their opposition became particularly pronounced after the Soviet Union occupied the country in late December of 1979, fearing it was in danger of being toppled by mujahideen forces.

The U.S. saw the situation as a prime opportunity to weaken the Soviet Union, and the move essentially signaled the end of the detente era initiated by former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Funding for anti-Soviet Mujahideen forces began PRIOR to the Soviet invasion, under the Carter administration, with the intention of provoking Soviet intervention (according to Zbigniew Brzezinski) and was significantly boosted under the Reagan administration, which was committed to actively rolling back Soviet influence in the Third World. The Mujahideen belonged to various different factions, but all shared a similarly conservative Islamic ideology, to varying degrees.

After the Soviet Union had leveled most of the villages south and east of Kabul, creating a massive humanitarian disaster, the demise of the PDPA continued with the rise of the Mujahideen guerrillas, who were trained in Pakistani camps with U.S. support. Between 1982 and 1992, the number of people recruited by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency to join the insurgency topped 100,000.

The Soviet Union withdrew in 1989, but continued to provide military assistance worth billions of dollars to the PDPA regime until the USSR’s collapse in 1991.

END OF QUOTE. So the Soviet Union, now Russia, is not likely to be a welcome Peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and I shouldn’t think the Chinese would be all that soothing a presence either — given their reputation in Tibet — courtesy, for the most part, of Corporate Mass Media. But. Xenophobia is not a stupid thing to take into account given the overarching delicacies of the situation. Nor does it seem like a prohibitively expensive luxury — from where I’m sitting.

Iran has a better chance of serving the necessary purpose.

OPEN QUOTE

Since the early 1980s, approximately 3 million Afghan refugees were settled in Pakistan and about two million in Iran.

After September 11, 2001, when the United States Military and NATO forces were preparing for war with the Taliban in Afghanistan, a further million or so Afghans fled their country to evade possible US-NATO bombardment. By the end of 2001, there were approximately 5 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan, which included the numbers who were born in that country during the past 20 years. At the same time there were about 2.4 million Afghans staying or living in Iran, which totaled to 7.4 million in both countries.

Since early 2002, more than 4.5 million Afghan refugees have been repatriated through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) from both Pakistan and Iran back to their native country, Afghanistan.[1] As of late 2006, there were little less than 2.4 million Afghan refugees remaining in Pakistan and 920,000 in Iran.[2]

In October 2007, Afghanistan’s parliament, “in an open letter”, urged the government of Iran to halt deportation of Afghan refugees until the winter ends.

END OF QUOTE

Iran and that other Farsi speaking nation — Tajikistan

Tajikistan is already a member of the Shanghai Cooperative Organization.

There’s so much to factor in. . . but. Consciousness may be sequential but Mind parallel processes and but Pachamama is quantum mechanical so . . .

Just how much is NATO’s occupation of Afghanistan costing Russia?

The MIC, upset about the way things are going Pakistan, is thinking about FN invading Myanmar (in case you were wondering why the infamous “humanitarian aid” was having so much trouble getting visas.

Do we all know that really what the US MIC wants to do these days is invade (or at least scare the shit out of) China? Better yet, in their wildest fantasies, they are quite likely destroying the sweatshops with which EuroAmerica offshored their domestic job markets (because the Chinese aren’t paying their workers enough to turn them into shoppers (which was kinda the point (d’oh)) so now no one is buying all those goodies that US and European manufacturers rushed to China to manufacture so cheaply. And the good ship Predatory Capitalism is foundering on the rocks.

So why not, they are reasoning amongst themselves, destroy a chunk of China’s uber-competitive economy, just like they destroyed Yugoslavia’s economy in seconds flat. China’s a litlte bigger, but so was Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union, for that matter.

Are they test-driving the scenario in Tibet as we speak? Do we know what the game plan looks like by now?

Think about it. We know Afghanistan’s Heroin business is finding Europe through criminalized Russia and Kosovo. We know we know we know. Do we not know? A posse of boots in Georgia’s Autonomous Regions was a nice first step but it’s really just decoration. Really. Isn’t it? Very Christmasy, I might add.

But I do think it’d be quite a bit funnier to add a member to the SCO for every member that NATO threatens to add to its roster.

Look at all those lovely Peacekeepers Iran’s got waiting in the wings.

Not that The Package would necessarily ever have to get that far . . .

perhaps also here we need a quote from John Negroponte (at a recent NED speech to das Pakies) OPEN QUOTE

“I think that you could fairly say that the United States has accepted the fact that Pakistan has nuclear weapons and I think I would leave it at that.”

REUTERS PICTURES 1 month ago: U.S. Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte drinks water during his news conference in Karachi March 27, 2008. Negroponte rejected on Thursday suggestions that the United States was trying to dictate anti-terrorism policy to Pakistan’s new government.

Another exhibit for the Invading Burma thesis

Why the propaganda campaign for international intervention in Burma?

OPEN QUOTE

One should immediately pause and recall the outcome of similar “humanitarian” exercises. In 1999, the plight of Kosovan refugees was exploited by the US and its allies to wage war against Serbia and transform the province into a NATO protectorate largely “cleansed” of its Serbian minority. In the same year, Australia, with the backing of the US, used the violence of Indonesian-backed militias to justify a military intervention into East Timor to install a regime sympathetic to Canberra’s economic and strategic interests. After nearly a decade the local populations in both countries continue to live in appalling conditions, with none of their fundamental needs having been met.

LOL, did you make that just for MOI?

u mean like a dead mouse a cat brings ya?
nope
I made it for moi

Here’s another interesting piece. I know it looks like it’s about Kosovo but Kosovo’s the other side of Big Oils move on the oil fields of Central Asia . . . and lookie lookie :

Kosovo protest over Serbia election

OPEN QUOTE

Hundreds of ethnic Albanians in Pristina, Kosovo’s capital, have protested against Serbia’s plans to hold elections in Kosovo on Sunday.

The protesters said the United Nations’ interim Kosovo mission (Unmik) and the Kosovo government were responsible for failing to use their powers to prevent the elections from going ahead.

END OF QUOTE

Obviously Evo should hold a referendum in Santa Cruz . . . that’s the Referendum to hold. Ask ‘em if they want to participate in the emerging system of sovereign Latin American economies. LOL. See who says “no”.

well, Paul, i like it.

Now of course I have to drag something in for your feat.

I went looking for a picture of Moi Enomenga but I couldn’t remember enomenga” of bloody course — so I just searched for moi amazon and hit on this uberKuhl blog which appears sadly to have expired.

a l’autre bout du bout du monde

OPEN QUOTE

25 millions de chilangos, et moi et moi et moi

Arrived safely in Mexico City, with a sick Boli who managed to survive the 18 hours in the luggage compartment (pobrecito). The Boli would not eat, would not drink. He was not acting in typical Boli fashion (aka, very annoying), so yesterday I took him to the vet (aie, my pockets, the holes they BURN) who could not figure out what he had.. but he’s on antibiotics and seems to be doing a bit better, albeit that he still isn’t eating much, is losing industrial quantities of fur and has pus filled eyes.

My Boli, don’t die on me, not yet. Please. I can’t afford the vet.

This city is una locura total, oue. It’s like taking the crowds of Beijing in a hectic Lima setting in a city twice the size of Buenos Aires. Yesterday I tried crossing a street in the centro and there were about 150 people on my side and 200 on the other… it was CRAZINESS getting through that, let me tell you.

So but back to the Camp Bondsteel part of the noose

Serbian government adopts deals with EU and Russia.

OPEN QUOTE (from B92 — 5/9/08)

The government has today voted to pass both the Russian energy deal and the SAA on to parliament for ratification.

B92 understands that the Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA) was adopted at the cabinet meeting, chaired by Deputy Prime Minister Božidar ©eli©, after Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) ministers left the chamber.

As a result, the proposal to submit the SAA for ratification was passed unanimously.

Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica did however attend the vote on the Russian energy deal.

After a motion was adopted to consider the SAA first, Koštunica and his fellow DSS ministers left the chamber, returning later to consider the energy agreement.

The Russian energy agreement had appeared on the government’s agenda on two previous occasions, but had failed to receive majority backing. DSS-New Serbia had backed the motion, G17 Plus ministers had opposed it, while Democratic Party (DS) ministers had abstained.

DS ministers justified their abstentions on the basis that a dissolved parliament did not have the authority to take decisions of such magnitude.

They were able to vote in favor of the motion this time round, they said, because it would be down to the new parliament, formed after Sunday’s elections, to decide whether or not to ratify the deal.

The contract envisages the formation of a joint company to build a major pipeline artery through Serbia with an annual minimum capacity of 10bn cc of gas, as well as Russian Gazprom buying a 51 percent majority holding in the Serbian Oil Industry for EUR 400mn, to be supplemented with further investments totaling some EUR 500mn.

Both the president and prime minister attended the signing in Moscow.

END OF QUOTE

OMG the suspense is making me PUKE

From the Islamic Republic News Agency OPEN QUOTE

While congratulating Dimitry A Medvedev on his assuming the office of the President of the Russian Federation, India’s President Mrs. Pratibha Devisingh Patil invited him to visit India later this year.

“This year, we are holding the ‘Year of Russia’ in India marked by events in various facets of life. It would be our honor and pleasure to receive you in India later this year.”

India, of course, is hedging their bets. But. Hedge away hedge away hedge away!

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, dolly pies — it does look rather like the US is falling into the hands of a posse of Muslim Extremists with every gallon we guzzle . . . also known as The Gulf States. The Military Industrial Complex ain’t gonna function properly without that oil and diesel’s going for $4 bucks at the pump. That’s not a joke. And the harder it is to get boots, the more the MIC is gonna be trying to rely on technology and that means more oil. More more more. At $3.25 a gallon.

That’s what escalation in Pakistan means to you. The Euro American Oligarchy is thinking it can push through and steal all that Central Asian oil. And then they’ll be the real winners. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Pero. It ain’t looking good. It ain’t looking good. And they’re “raising money” by selling key US assets to supposedly harmless sounding Sovereign Wealth Funds. But you guys should all go ahead and look under the sheets.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh.

An oil-addicted ex-superpower

OPEN QUOTE

Every day, the average GI in Iraq uses approximately 27 gallons of petroleum-based fuels. With some 160,000 American troops in Iraq, that amounts to 4.37 million gallons in daily oil usage, including gasoline for vans and light vehicles, diesel for trucks and armored vehicles, and aviation fuel for helicopters, drones, and fixed-wing aircraft. With US forces paying, as of late April, an average of $3.23 per gallon for these fuels, the Pentagon is already spending approximately $14 million per day on oil ($98 million per week, $5.1 billion per year) to stay in Iraq.

Under the military “transformation” initiated by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in 2001, the future US war machine will rely less on “boots on the ground” and ever more on technology.

But technology entails an ever-greater requirement for oil, as the newer weapons sought by Rumsfeld (and now Secretary of Defense Robert Gates) all consume many times more fuel than those they will replace. To put this in perspective: The average GI in Iraq now uses about seven times as much oil per day as GIs did in the first Gulf War less than two decades ago. And every sign indicates that the same ratio of increase will apply to coming conflicts; that the daily cost of fighting will skyrocket; and that the Pentagon’s capacity to shoulder multiple foreign military burdens will unravel.

hitler never managed to capture the caspian oil