soldiers return home from war to a people who wishes to forget them. we honor them with parades, shiny medals, and bumper magnets, but we do not wish to hear their stories when they come home. we do not wish to understand their experiences, or feel their unimaginable pain. we do not wish to try to understand what it means to be caused to kill other human beings, and to be killed by them. we do not wish to understand what it means to hold our best friend while he gasps his last breath, torso torn from abdomen. we do not wish to understand what it means to hold another human being in the sight of your gun, and pull the trigger. all we want to do is ignore and forget.

we dont wish to hear their freaking sob stories because deep down … we all know that these men don’t fight for freedom. They fight for college educations, fast track immigration and money.

They kill because its a job … and they kill themselves because they know they are murderers, torturers and rapists for hire … fighting for the elite they’ll never be … an elite which considers these men simply as tools and commodities.

Fuck the troops. You hear me, fuck them … I dont support the troops. I think they are mindless idiots who kill for personal profit.

They are the same ones who will one day kick in your front door and burn all your books. Just following orders Mam’.

SIR YES SIR! SIR YES SIR!

120 dead soldiers a week … think of all the savings in terms of medical, psychiatric and benefits for the tax payer. Now that’s patriotic! Good little tin soldiers.

Keep it up!

Its really too bad that some people on this site can’t get over the fact that their dad pressured them to play football. Or some cop took their skateboard away.

They really can’t accept that human suffering is a bad thing, no matter who endures it. I’m not into this troop worship thing, but it shouldn’t take much to feel for the broken families on both sides a result of this war.

these men don’t fight for freedom. They fight for college educations, fast track immigration and money… They kill because its a job…

this is true. but due in large part to the mythology of heroism our culture fabricates surrounding war, and the power of our government’s propaganda (from “education” to “entertainment”), many ignorant american citizens enter war for illusory reasons, though they are soon disillusioned, and the myths of was dispelled.

I think they are mindless idiots who kill for personal profit.

for profit? i can understand the argument that they enter the military out of economic necessity, for socio-econimic survival, but it certainly isn’t much of a profit.

i think they are victims rendered mindless by the society they were born into and raised by. and i think they kill to survive a situation they should never have been put in in the first place. in the battle-field, you fight to survive, with your buddies. nothing more. fuck politics. fuck the president. fuck the lies and rationalizations for war. fuck being betrayed by your government, whom you once believed in. fuck all of it. just survive. just get out alive.

i do not support them as troops. i support them as human beings.

they kill themselves because they know they are murderers, torturers and rapists for hire

agreed! but also, as i was trying to point out, they kill themselves because they know their country turned them into murderers, rapists, and torturers over the lies of the elite. they kill themselves because no one cares, and because those that recognize this truth, see them as the enemy. they are not the enemy. they are pawns. they are tools. they have been played. but they are also our brothers and our sisters, our mothers and our fathers, our sons and our daughters. and in being trained to enforce the will of the elite, they were trained in the very skills needed to combat the empire. they can be a powerful ally. but we must welcome them home with open arms, forgive them, love them, and help the to forgive themselves.

as Noam Chomsky said in the film “The Corporation” (i think, at least) any one of us could be a saint, and any one of us could be a gas chamber attendant, depending on the circumstances (i like to think i would resist, but many obviously don’t). these soldiers are human beings just like us who have been turned into killers. for those with a taste for death, there is no turning back. but for the rest, we must remember that they could be us.

I’m not into this troop worship thing

i hope you all don’t think that’s what i am doing here. fuck the troop. love the human.

have any of you ever read what Nelson Mandela wrote about his experiences in prison? he said that he came to the realization that his guards, too, were prisoners who needed to be liberated.

A shout out and welcome to US troops in the Gulf. You are all being forced to fight an illegal war for the rich and powerful, a war that is opposed by the entire world. The moral thing for you to do is to disobey orders and do everything possible to keep yourself and your buddies safe so you can return home to America. The Chickenhawks in Washington think of you as cannon fodder, but we’d like to see all of you return home safely. Stay safe and Harass the Brass!

“After a war, a hero is just a man with one leg.“ —Anonymous

for profit? i can understand the argument that they enter the military out of economic necessity, for socio-econimic survival, but it certainly isn’t much of a profit

when you come home from your tour of duty and your bank account is in the black … you just made profit. it might be a much smaller profit than what a mercenary makes or a Haliburton … but it is profit none the less.

in the battle-field, you fight to survive, with your buddies. nothing more. fuck politics. fuck the president. fuck the lies and rationalizations for war

just like gang members in the hood i guess, right? they fight to survive in their little war. be we chuck them into jails to become slave labor.

the troops can kill kids to survive in the field … but dont have the balls to tell their captains and superiors to fuck off.

you can be sure that along with this cover-up of suicides is a cover-up of desertions, mutinies, and fraggings…

In Support of Mutiny!

Hear hear, Hellcat

no one mourned the death of Nazi soldiers who killed themselves awaiting trials for just following orders.
They have to know no one gives a shit here at home save for their own families/dependents. Look how the bullies can kill poor brown people in cold blood then expect sympathy for their crimes in an illegal war.
No better than Nazis, and that’s why they are treated as such when they come home.
What do you do with a tool when its performed its duty? Well you either re-use it or if you are in America, you throw it away and buy a new one.

but it shouldn’t take much to feel for the broken families on both sides a result of this war

i’m all empathyied out meditating about 60,000+ dead Iraqis … if … i have a bit left I’ll use the rest on the poor Africans in endless war … then if i have some extra scraps I’ll use it for the millions dying of aids … and thennnn if there a couple of drops left at the bottom of my bleeding heart I’ll spend it on the poor, the unemployed, blind people, un-insured, kids with autism, my sick grandmother, Christopher Reeves and the dont taze me dude …

... the troops AND their families can go suck a dick!

There is no cure for uranium oxide poisoning and it is a painful way to die.
That many choose suicide is not that surprising.

no one mourned the death of Nazi soldiers who killed themselves awaiting trials for just following orders.

i’m sure their friends, family, and lovers did… (please interpret this as sympathy for humans, not for Nazis. i’m not saying that in forgiveness and love they should not be punished for any crimes they committed. but i can’t advocate having them brought to “justice” by the very system they killed for, and the very system whose legitimacy i reject and challenge. i find great value in the idea and practice of truth and reconcilliation).

What do you do with a tool when its performed its duty? Well you either re-use it or if you are in America, you throw it away and buy a new one.

i also reject the common phrase “the masters tools will never dismantle the masters house.” like hell they can’t.

have you read vol. II of Jensen’s Endgame ?!? witness his conversation with the ex-military explosives specialist.

but they will reuse what tools they can, on us, here at home. those soliders with a taste for killing will be used against the Resistance here at home. but as always, many will (and already have) joined the Resistance.

i’m all empathyied out meditating about 60,000+ dead Iraqis…

i’m all about recognizing, remembering, and mourning the 100,000+ Iraqi deaths as well. what’s more, i’m all about fighting back for them, but also for the americans caught in this war of empire. and thankfully, my empathy, like my love, is not something quantifiable. i remember calling my mom out on this when i was a little kid, when she told me “i love you with all my heart.” “how can you love me with all your heart, mom?” i asked. “don’t you need to save some for dad?”

our hearts cannot be quantified. our empathy is not of a limited supply.

i do not believe any life is worth more than any other.

it seems to me that you must feel the same, but you seem to be twisting this to justify seeing the lives of the pawns of the aggressor as worth less than the victims. because i see all lives as equal, i cannot take this stance.

you think this situation is complicated now? just wait till they deploy our own troops against us. just wait till we’re having to fight our own army on our own soil. some of them will join us. some will not.

what we need to be thinking about is how we can get as many of them as possible to join us. history informs us that we cannot afford to ignore this dynamic.

it seems to me that you must feel the same, but you seem to be twisting this to justify seeing the lives of the pawns of the aggressor as worth less than the victims. because i see all lives as equal, i cannot take this stance

pragmatically do you not place the life of a young child higher than that of the child molester who rapes her?

i see this suicide situation as a : he got what he deserved.

the same goes for all those murderous killers who come back legless or all fucked up! they fucking got what they deserved.

Karmic Justice.

You cant have your hate and eat it too.

pragmatically do you not place the life of a young child higher than that of the child molester who rapes her?

of course, and given the option, i might kill to stop that rape. but once the rape has been committed, killing the rapist will not turn back time and change the past.

the vets need to organize and strike back at the system—those well-trained killa techniques they learn bumping off Iraqi insurgents— put ‘em to good use here at home. I’m not saying attack the general populace slaughtering innocent Americans in shopping malls when you are ready to kill yourself, but make special “last” visits to Congressmen, Senators, and their families so your death at least means something when you take some of these cunts with you.

and what do you think of those “who come back legless or all fucked up” who never killed? maybe they just drove a truck. sure, they aided in the infrastructural support of the killers. but that’s the same argument Ward Churchill was making about the world trade center workers.

make special “last” visits to Congressmen, Senators, and their families so your death at least means something when you take some of these cunts with you.

don’t bring anyone into this who wasn’t directly involved in the decision-making process. this means no harming the families.

what? cry for those little Eichmanns? That’s like letting the doode who drove the drive by vehicle off the hook because he didn’t shoot anyone.

and … fuck the technocrats too while you’re at it … sure why not!

while i’m at it … fuck anyone who ever seriously used the term “freedom fries“also just for good measure.

woah Belphegor69 … that’s like writing a poem about burning churches … touchy touchy!

besides, there are much more strategic and tactically effective means by which we can resist and subvert the system, without having to resort to murder and assassination.

the physical infrastructure of the war machine is far too vulnerable in and of itself, especially if ex-military and workers are in on it. workers manufacture and transport all weapons supplies, and the lines of transport are full of choke points. take out this infrastructure and bring the shit to a halt. the Resistance against the Nazis in WWII took out weapons factories, but soon learned to take out ball bearing factories, because you need the ball bearings to rebuild the weapons factories. that’s the sort of thinking we need to be doing. in a system like ours, they’d love us to think that just taking out a few people will change things. the fact of the matter is that they problem is systemic, not human. we need to take out the system, not the people. if we take out the people, they just get replaced.

i’m getting out of this thread before the Men in Black come knocking at my door.

God Bless Amerikkka!

That’s like letting the doode who drove the drive by vehicle off the hook because he didn’t shoot anyone.

i think there’s a bit of a difference between (not) letting someone off the hook and killing them.

i never said they should not be “brought to justice,” though that raises issues of just whose “justice” we’re talking about here, how it is defined, and how it is brought. i can’t advocate bringing someone to and by the justice of the very system that i oppose.

either way, killing the co-conspirators of wars is not the answer.

and about the “little Eichmanns” thing, i think we need to distinguish the level of involvement we’re talking about here. many of those workers were indeed complicit, and probably were hard pressed to rationalize and justify their work to themselves. maybe many of them realized the very real effects of the work they did on paper and computer screens. but i don’t think this analysis applies to the janitors and snack cart workers.

good call, hellcat. get out while you can.

think there’s a bit of a difference between (not) letting someone off the hook and killing them

I’m not and never said I wanted someone to kill the troops or Senators … I’m just not spilling any tears.

I don’t like death. That’s why I’m all ranty and ravy.

and BTW ...

but i don’t think this analysis applies to the janitors and snack cart workers

I do!

Ever tought that those who commit suicide have conscience problems? The most decent have problems coming to grips with what they have seen and done.

Callousness is not an answer, it’s merely anger directed and compassionless.

The US Nazis are really after Westboro Baptist Church which is admired widely for its’ decency.

US church fined millions for picketing military funeral in anti-gay protest

“no one mourned the death of Nazi soldiers who killed themselves awaiting trials for just following orders.”

I know of US soldiers that didn’t gas any jews…I know, gasp! Is that possible?

Ever tought that those who commit suicide have conscience problems? The most decent have problems coming to grips with what they have seen and done

yes, you’re right.

i think these guys are fuckers because they should have been REAL men and stood up for themselves before they went out and did all that stupid shit that makes them want to go kill themselves.

you hear these guys on online videos laughing and being all macho as they pump bullets all over the place wearing their ipods and listening to heavy metal.

it was all fun and games … until they come home and realize that most people want these guys in their neighborhoods as much as they do a convicted sex offender.

they let themselves be brainwashed into thinking they are patriotic … how idiotic.

these men have little or no character in my book … and are not worthy of my compassion. nothing but mindless drone killers.

You assume most military are mindless killers. They don’t make policy and contrarywise to Germany’s modern military, who are to refuse obeing an illegal order, they are kept at arms lenght from the real motivations of policy makers.

But few are dupes anymore. Desertions is at it’s highest. Veterans are openly critical of policies.

We are talking about young people … everyone gets brainwashed one way or another at 18. Be it being leftist, video gamer, gothic, ecolo, hippy, carreer minded, etc, etc.

It’s the so-called “old and wise” you should direct your anger against. They lied, duped and abused a generation of young people, of all people.

Soldiers who commit suicide were already dead and punished. Hell is a state of mind.

they let themselves be brainwashed into thinking they are patriotic … how idiotic.

As does the average U.S. citizen who casts a vote, who bought into the framework of a “War on Terror”, who still, in a state of catatonia, believes there is something pure about their leadership.

Let’s hope the principles of a collective conscience makes a comeback. What those soldiers have learned could be valuable under the proper circumstances.

Remember the scene from Frankenstein (black n white) where the townspeople gather their torches and set out to destroy the monster. Imagine that scenario on a much wider scale, where Frankenstein is instead, a system cobbled together from so many broken pieces that it no longer represents anything human.

i saw this really fuck up kid who got his face all fucked up in the war … and it made me realize that my gut reaction to this thread to go all bezerrrk … hating on these young soldiers is a tad harsh.

there might be a couple of drops of compassion in my heart for them too.

i just wish theyd freaking just wise up though!

war suck! just get these kids back from this freaking chaos!

Veterans’ Suicides: a Hidden Cost of Bush’s Wars: Americans have been effectively insulated from the human cost of our wars. That’s not an accident; it’s policy.