clearly the goal of Operation Iraqi freedom , or Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) was to kill off as many people in that area as possible so that there will be less and less resistance to getting that oil. I just wonder if we are going to drop a nuke sooner or later, maybe we need to kill everyone in the middle east- except israel jordan saudi arabia, at least not now. Civilization is destroying itself. Read Derrick Jensen

I hate to say it, but genocide does seem to be the goal. I keep hearing reports that there’s no water in Baghdad now, the water supply’s been stopped.

Watch the Pentagon still claim it’s only Iran that’s arming the insurgents.

oh wait, I just read that on gnn

For even darker speculation, I keep having this terrible feeling that Iraq is practice for Martial Law U.S.A.

Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you

clearly the goal of Operation Iraqi freedom , or Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) was to kill off as many people in that area as possible so that there will be less and less resistance to getting that oil. – donovonc

If that was a goal, there are a hell of a lot more efficient ways to go about it. Such as setting up a false-flag NBC attack on our forces at the beginning of the conflict, to which we would have responded with a nuke on Baghdad.

I hate to say it, but genocide does seem to be the goal. – bacchus

Somehow I doubt you hate to say it.

In any case, this smells a lot more like total incompetence on our side and corruption bred by desperation on their side, not a concerted, planned effort to create a genocide situation. I bet there are a lot of cops hocking AK’s to whoever will buy just to get a few dinars for food and water….and a bunch of American arms fences too stupid to keep track of them. Never assume brilliant conspiracy when incompetent inattention serves to explain something equally well…

Why can’t they lose a few AKs in Oregon? I would like one or two.

Did they check under the couch cushions?

Never assume brilliant conspiracy when incompetent inattention serves to explain something equally well

Exactly.

Never assume brilliant conspiracy when incompetent inattention serves to explain something equally well

Bush has been making a political career (IMHO) of the exact opposite, making nefarious ‘fuck poor people’ decisions and convincing people to pass them off as incompetent inattention…

the bush admin is so inept, they can’t even lose american weapons. why AK’s? fueling the russian economy are we now?

AMERICA: FUCK! YEAH!
Mission Accomplished and what not

This is vaguely familiar.

See here – it seems to happen every year.

My, my, we are careless with our AK-47s aren’t we? I wonder which corner of the globe they are being shuttled off to.

Actually looking at that it seems that these guns were lost sometime after 2004. Could they be the same guns, just zapped off the books and into black ops?

“Bush has been making a political career (IMHO) of the exact opposite, making nefarious ‘buck poor people’ decisions and convincing people to pass them off as incompetent inattention…”
~Truthcansuk (paraphrased)

Word.

They’ve been allowed far too much rein on the “incompetence” tip. It’s getting really stale.

911, 911

Sometimes no Peace

911, 911

Speaking of getting stale…

Bush has been making a political career (IMHO) of the exact opposite, making nefarious ‘fuck poor people’ decisions and convincing people to pass them off as incompetent inattention

The thing is, though, I have a hard time believing that this is a Bush decision. It’s sort of an Occam’s razor sort of thing to me; the guns are issued to the Iraqis and then they disappear. There’s zero oversight, zero attention, they just get signed off and forgotten about. They’re also valuable items to have in a war zone, and you’re giving them to custodians (the Iraqi police) who have a vested interest (poverty and desperation) in selling them on the open market, using them for their own use, or fencing them to arms smugglers. Also consider the “contractors,” who probably maintain very snuggly relations with arms dealers and others.

I dunno. I see shit disappearing in a lawless, desperate area with incompetent oversight and a booming underground arms market, conspiracy is not the first thing I reach for.

“135,000 items of body armor”

my oh my, we are losing body armor now? I hope this doesnt get out to all those troops who needed body armor a couple of years ago, when Rummy was saying, you fight with the force you have…. lol

yes i think snark is right, incompetent inattention is to blame for a great deal of this, but i also think that can only be cited in the gov.‘s angle on things. The contractors know exactly what they are doing. Remember we are talking about similar people who are shipping in labor (against their knowledge and sometimes wills), trading in children, etc.

Nothing garauntees incompetence + corruption like a war in which there is no oversight except committee members who can do very little anyways.

Snark – The thing is, though, I have a hard time believing that this is a Bush decision.

I was commenting on the Never assume brilliant conspiracy when incompetent inattention serves to explain something equally well maxim… in this case, it does not apply…

I hate you…

Just to clarify, it’s not an ‘I’d like to see you raped by a rabid walrus and set on fire’ hate, just an ‘I was incorrect and you noticed’ hate…

It’s already almost all gone…

Snark – The thing is, though, I have a hard time believing that this is a Bush decision.

lmao!

The only thing Bush has to decide, ever, is what fucking tie to where in the morning. And even that purely Bush decision is questionable.

He hasn’t made his own decision since he was elected…and even that wasn’t his decision. LOL

· 110,000 AK-47s
· 80,000 pistols
· 135,000 bits of armour

Snark, how do you explain the two SAS commandos arrested in Basra who were dressed like Arabs, driving around shooting at civilians, and had a trunk full of bomb-making equipment? How do you explain Britain’s subsequent reaction? You want to talk about Occam’s razor?

In nearly every colonial occupation, the strategy of the occupiers has been to divide and conquer. Look at how the U.S. eliminated American Indian tribes; befriend one tribe, turn them on another, then turn a third tribe onto the one which was just befriended. The strategy was to use old tribal vendettas to prevent unified resistance. As long as the indians were shooting at eachother, it made occupation a hell of a lot easier.

Are we supposed to believe that the U.S. and British power elite have forgotten everything they learned from centuries of colonialism, and are too brave and noble to pit Iraqi factions against one another? Am I going to far to suggest that pitting Iraqi factions against one another while bombing the place to rubble is tantamount to genocide??

For clarification though, I do think you have a point about the loosing the guns being at least partially incompetence. Joining the “security forces,” for guns and training, then defecting to the resistance with said guns and training is classic guerrilla warfare. Like, duh.

“We’re just soccer hooligans, honest!”

^ SAS officers & trunk contents

Snark, how do you explain the two SAS commandos arrested in Basra who were dressed like Arabs, driving around shooting at civilians, and had a trunk full of bomb-making equipment?

Different issue. Not to devalue that particular event, but I don’t think this is the same thing.

Am I going to far to suggest that pitting Iraqi factions against one another while bombing the place to rubble is tantamount to genocide??

Well, to be honest, yeah. “Genocide” is a very specific word with a lot of emotional power that gets thrown around way too casually. I know what you’re saying – that it’s a reprehensible form of really dirty, subtle, indiscriminate warfare that victimizes an entire society – but genocide is a different beast.

Suggesting that a bunch of guns going missing after being issued to the Iraqi cops is necessarily a part of pitting Iraqi factions against one another while bombing the place to rubble is, in my opinion, going a bit too far. Possible? Sure. But I think my explanation, for this specific event, is most likely.

Snark: But I think my explanation, for this specific event, is most likely.

lol – comedy gold.

Your explanation ‘forgets’ to take into account the reporting last year of 200,000 AK’s shipped from Bosnia to Iraq and now reported ‘missing’. Probably the same AK’s being talked about here since both reports mention they were shipped in 2004/5.

The contract for shipping the Ak’s mentioned last year was sub-contracted out to Victor Bout: (See Szamko’s post # R161600)

Unbelievable as it may seem, Viktor Bout, internationally-wanted fugitive and weapons supplier to the Taliban and al Qaeda, continues to fly for U.S. firms in Iraq, being paid by U.S. taxpayer dollars. So confident is he of whatever protection he seems to have, that he has not even bothered to change the call letters of his aircraft, flying under MCC, the designation of Aerocom. Two flights, MCC 9025 and MCC 9027 are scheduled today and tomorrow into Iraq. – That was in April 2005. That’s a year after Moldova refused Aerocom an ‘air operator certificate’ and Farah found no sign that a new one had been rustled up anywhere else.

Bout has also been linked to Osama Bin Laden pre 9-11 by the British government no less.

Now, you mean to tell me that the ‘missing’ Ak’s are the result of mere incompentence rather than deliberate actions?

Stick with the Astro-turf, whatever you do don’t switch to forensics

Occams Razor, my ass

Now, you mean to tell me that the ‘missing’ Ak’s are the result of mere incompentence rather than deliberate actions?

What do I have to do, spoon-feed the fucking point to you?

The assertion was made that this was some attempt to trigger a genocide among the Iraqis. I called bullshit on that. And then I said this:

“I see shit disappearing in a lawless, desperate area with incompetent oversight and a booming underground arms market, conspiracy is not the first thing I reach for.”

I’m arguing that incompetent oversight, corruption, and inattention are creating an atmosphere where this sort of shit can happen, rather than some grand diabolical genocide scheme. You get in my face and start making noise about Victor Bout being given the contract to smuggle the AK’s. Which, uh, is exactly what I’m saying. We don’t disagree. We’re both pointing out that this is probably corruption, profiteering, and gross negligence, and not a concerted plan to eradicate the Iraqi nationality.

So, either you rolled out of bed and said, “I think I’ll be an asshat for no reason today” or you didn’t take the minimal effort to read and understand my goddamn post.

Snarky:

I’m arguing that incompetent oversight, corruption, and inattention are creating an atmosphere where this sort of shit can happen

Gee, you think I didn’t get that, or something? Did you read the thread I linked? There’s no way Vic Bout was chosen randomly, or chosen by some mere ‘corrupt’ Pentagon flunky. Also there’s no way GWB is allowed anywhere near this type of decision. Do you really think he makes any of the important decisions anyway?

You can call it ‘oversight, corruption, and inattention’ if you want, but don’t expect anyone that has been paying attention to swallow that line of BS.

BTW: I never said anything about genocide. They don’t need AK’s for that – they got DU to do a slow job for them. The Iraqi genepool’s gonna be well F’d-up in 30 or 40 yrs time due to DU. I realise someone else was mentioning genocide but as I said they don’t need AK’s for that. The AK’s are to facilitate the break-up of Iraq an the continuation of the US’s ‘peacekeeping’ mission. To pretend that all of this comes down to ‘incompetent oversight, corruption, and inattention’ is extremely naive (at best) and could possibly qualify you as ‘down-right stupid’, were it not for the fact that I’ve seen you demonstrate your intelligence on other subjects.

We’re both pointing out that this is probably corruption, profiteering, and gross negligence, and not a concerted plan to eradicate the Iraqi nationality.

Not at all – What do I have to do, spoon-feed the fucking point to you?

it appears you didn’t take the minimal effort to read and understand the goddamn linked thread. Pity that.

of course its a fucking conspiracy.!

a bunch of mainly english luciferian freemasons are using the corporations they control to carve up the planet and totaly enslave us all.

how well would you thrive without water , food , gas , electric and petrol.?

A handfull of people control the world market of these “bear necessities” (“oh yes those simply bare necessities of life” – jungle book.) from supply to end user.

soon our food will be patented.

do ya need ta know more.?

ps … Namaste_Rich – nice one.respect.

baccus – yep 100% correct about brit intel.

planting bombs and blaming it on someone else is a favorite trick of MI5 and MI6.
when you think about it their job and their ‘stock in trade’ is mainly terrorism.
by any definition all intelligense organisations are terrorists.its their job.

You can call it ‘oversight, corruption, and inattention’ if you want, but don’t expect anyone that has been paying attention to swallow that line of BS.

I honestly have no idea why it is you think it’s so full of shit. Whether they’re going to support the breakup of Iraq, whether they made it to the cops and were stolen or fenced, whether they never made it to Iraq and ended up in some other warzone – it all happened only because the people who are supposed to be paying attention aren’t, and the people who need attention are running amok. Of course the hiring of Victor Bout wasn’t a mistake, I never said it was – I just find small groups of loose cannons operating with impunity more likely than grand monolithic schemes.

BTW: I never said anything about genocide. They don’t need AK’s for that – they got DU to do a slow job for them. The Iraqi genepool’s gonna be well F’d-up in 30 or 40 yrs time due to DU.

Thanks for clarifying.

The AK’s are to facilitate the break-up of Iraq an the continuation of the US’s ‘peacekeeping’ mission.

Ok, first off, this is the middle east, dude. There are already so many fucking AK’s on the market over there that they don’t need to import them. I find it far more likely that they’re being funneled to whatever scary group of nutcases we’re arming this week. You could buy an AK for about a hundred bucks, in perfect working order. You don’t need shadowy arms dealers and shipments from Bosnia, you need a couple briefcases full of cash. I think these either never made it to Iraq and got shipped somewhere else entirely, or they made it to Iraq and were stolen or fenced.

And quit yer bitching about people ‘getting in your face’ – you do it yourself all the time when you think someone says something you consider to be stupid. In this case you said sometime I consider to be extremely stupid and you got the exactly the type of reply you’d hand out were we discussing something you actually had a clue about.

Point taken, I suppose. Though I doubt you’re an expert on international arms trading, so claiming you’ve got any more of a clue than anybody else is lame.

Whatevs. I still don’t think we disagree much, we’re just framing what we’re saying differently. I find it more likely that there’s a small conspiracy trying to get rich and/or supply our favorite dictator of the week, or somebody in the Iraqi cops fencing the guns, rather than some grand US plot orchestrated at the highest levels as part of the grand plan for the war in Iraq or to instigate genocide. I don’t think that’s incompatible with what you’re saying.

Can i call it a holocaust?

160,000 AK-47s? Sounds like a Detroit housing project…

zing.

Can i call it a holocaust?

I’ll just roll my eyes at you a great deal.

Iraqi civilians are dying at a rate of about 75 per day due to the ongoing violence due to occupation, insurgency and factional conflict.

Extrapolate these losses and the size the U.S. occupation, the U.S. which has over 12 times the population Iraq had at the onset of this war and consider the impact a hypothetical Chinese occupation of the U.S. with a running average of nearly 900 civilians dead each and every day and “host” to almost 2 million Chinese troops and another 2 million Chinese “contractors.”

If a third of a million U.S. civilians were being killed annually due to the imposition of such an illegal and violent occupation would you call that a genocide?

Iraqis are abandoning their homeland. There are fewer Iraqis (in Iraq) now than at the onset of the invasion.

Take a hard look at the way the violent situation in Iraq has escalated over the past four years and assume for a moment that it continues to follow this pattern of continued escalation.

At what, if any point does this occupation become a genocide?

Sometimes no Peace

Why do you suppose the U.S. imported and provided the Iraqi police with AK-47’s, the weapon of choice in these parts when there are so many other “western” assault rifles from which to choose?

Could it be so that it is exponentially more difficult to differentiate forensically the “work” of the Iraqi police from that of the insurgents?

Sometimes no Peace

or maybe they’re cheaper.

Why do you suppose the U.S. imported and provided the Iraqi police with AK-47’s, the weapon of choice in these parts when there are so many other “western” assault rifles from which to choose?

Because they’re extraordinarily cheap, insanely durable, and have been cranked out in a volume that makes my testicles jealous. My anecdote about being able to walk down to the market and buy an AK for a hundred bucks was dead accurate; there’s a lot of world where an assault rifle costs less than a blowjob.

“At what, if any point does this occupation become a genocide?”

Methinks that is up to Fox News and Reuters to decide.

Double plus like terror, the US doesnt do genocide!!!

(I hate that this is a joke for us on GNN)

“Because they’re extraordinarily cheap, insanely durable, and have been cranked out in a volume that makes my testicles jealous. My anecdote about being able to walk down to the market and buy an AK for a hundred bucks was dead accurate; there’s a lot of world where an assault rifle costs less than a blowjob.”

Honestly, why does that excite you?

“extraordinarily cheap, insanely durable”

Doesn’t DoD usually buy insanely overpriced, poorly-made shit from corporations that have close ties to current admin officials? The purchasing of AKs seems kind of out-of-place to me; however, if this were intentional arming of “insurgents” don’t you think they could cover up the purchasing and distro a little better and use disinfo to blame the influx of weapons on Iran/Syria/NKorea/Russia/etc.?

“The purchasing of AKs seems kind of out-of-place to me”

Out of place? I reckon buying bullets and repairing AK’s in Iraq is a lot easier than for M16’s. Its not out of place so much as it is in its place.

Intentional arming of insurgents?

No doubt you are right about that phoenix, but I meant out of place in terms of the us government’s business-as-usual policies which favor economic well-being of corporations over pragmatic concerns.

“Intentional arming of insurgents” is implied in some of the previous posts and in the proposition that the us gov wants an ongoing low-intensity conflict among various factions. I am not taking a position on that other than to say that this missing arms thing is weird but doesn’t appear to be a smoking gun in that direction.

And really, why would they need to cover it up when there are a hundred thousand retards in the US who will spin it for them. (If they even knew about this story)

“pragmatic concerns.”

I dont understand, pragmatic concerns of the government? The pragmatic concerns of government are the same as the pragmatic concerns of corporations. To hold and expand power.

however, if this were intentional arming of “insurgents” don’t you think they could cover up the purchasing and distro a little better and use disinfo to blame the influx of weapons on Iran/Syria/NKorea/Russia/etc

Either that, or we don’t want whoever’s actually getting them to obviously be packing US hardware.

or maybe they’re cheaper.

It’d have been cheaper to leave Iraq to the Iraqis, at 450 Billion and counting, money doesn’t seem to be a primary consideration.

It would seem that with weapons going missing, the situation can’t be a whole lot different regarding ammunition accountability. Having both sides using the same weapons means of course that both sides are also using the same ammunition.

I’d be interested to know what the 80,000 handguns were and where they were manufactured.

Peace,

“at 450 Billion and counting, money doesn’t seem to be a primary consideration.”

You would be correct if that money was dissapearing into a black hole, which it isnt. Money is power, and that is why the US invaded Iraq.

“Either that, or we don’t want whoever’s actually getting them to obviously be packing US hardware.”

No, what sis said was more plausable. If “they” didnt want “them” to know, then this would not be a story on GNN.

phoenix – The pragmatic concerns of government are the same as the pragmatic concerns of corporations

That’s what I said – as opposed to the pragmatic concerns mentioned about durability and servicing the weapons. The concerns of the u.s. gov usually have to do with contracts given to govenment-linked corporations, none of which produce AKs to my knowledge.

whoever’s actually getting them to obviously be packing US hardware

Having both sides using the same weapons means of course that both sides are also using the same ammunition

both good points

“The concerns of the u.s. gov usually have to do with contracts given to govenment-linked corporations, none of which produce AKs to my knowledge.”

But sis, if there is no one for the US to fight against in Iraq, then there are more than a few US corporations that are going to be sol. Fighters need weapons.

Maybe Iran, China and Russia are not stepping up to the plate. I really have no idea.

if there is no one for the US to fight against in Iraq, then there are more than a few US corporations that are going to be sol

Sure, but the us has no problem inventing enemies and bombing non-threats like pharmaceutical factories and fishing villages. But we’re splitting hairs on something we seem to mostly agree on so I quit.

That these small arms were shipped from Bosnia to Iraq was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Could these weapons have been captured/confiscated, sold to arms dealers and subsequently repurchased by the U.S./Nato forces and then recycled for use by the Iraqi police?

The origin of the handguns would be useful information in this instance.

So pretty much your cynicism trumps mine in that you think that those ak’s were sold to whoever with no real plan merely because no US corporation will immediately benefit?

I can agree to that I think…

International small arms sales/exports

So pretty much your cynicism trumps mine in that you think that those ak’s were sold to whoever with no real plan merely because no US corporation will immediately benefit?

If that is directed to me and not sis, my take on the provision of AK’s for use by the Iraqi government/police forces ensures that the insurgents will remain flush with both weapons and ammunition so long as there is any will for an insurgency within Iraq.

The U.S. having more contractors in Iraq than troops, the continuing insurgency is job security for these folks and solid combat experience and hardening for U.S. forces in preparation for the remaining military adventures and exploits the neocons have slated in the greater Middle East.

Sometimes no Peace