I really don’t think anyone is surprised. I hostly don’t even know what’s left to say.

one thing that must be stated is unlike korea or japan, the americans are surrounded by enemies that are prepared to continue to kill them on sight; surrounded by countries full of people who feel the same way.

korea was divided in 2, leaving the US troops at least surrounded by friendlies.

japan was obliterated after the cowardly act of dropping the atom bomb on civilians.

this battle against islam is the biggest pile america has stepped in, yet.

if america’s politicians are prepared to continue to spend billions and wear the US military to the breaking point, then there’s not much that can stop it.

Well, when the war is over, it won’t matter if the US has a presence as long as relations with the government is good. What is more important is what to do right now.

A series of national strikes here at home to drive up the domestic economic costs of the war and force the politicians to find the means to end the slaughter of Iraqis and the needless deaths of our troops.

Peace,

A series of national strikes here at home to drive up the domestic economic costs of the war and force the politicians to find the means to end the slaughter of Iraqis and the needless deaths of our troops.

Why do you assume that the solution to the slaughter rests solely in the hands of the United States government. Since miltants are now doing most of the rempant killing and that Iraqis are the main victims, why would you not look to Iraqis for solutions.

I think that most experts agree that if the US left too precipitously the situation would get worse. The US needs to get out but how and whan is the million dollar question.

if america’s politicians are prepared to continue to spend billions and wear the US military to the breaking point, then there’s not much that can stop it.

Let’s be real. Johnny’s got to get to soccer practice. “Charlie don’t surf!“

“I think that most experts agree that if the US left too precipitously the situation would get worse.”

I so want to invade your house, destroy the shit out of it, kill a bunch of your family, move into your living room, spend my days playing your playstation and ordering pay per view porn, all while urging your little brothers to try and kill the rest of your family. I will hold press conferences, (when I feel like it) outside explaining to the world about how historically dysfunctional you are and how I am just helping. I will complain that the reporting is all negative because the media is a bunch of hippies.

Then I will patiently explain to you, that if I left, things would only get worse.

And god forbid you try and defend your home! Fucking terrorist.

most experts agree that if the US left

The only experts I trust are the one bright enough to see this war was the stupidest idea ever.

The US needs to get out but how and whan is the million dollar question.
WALK TO THE NEAREST BORDER AND STEP OVER NOW (send the million)
for the longest time the iraqi factions lived in relative harmony
now its pro american or anti american at each others throat
with the allowable 9 out of ten collateral damage victims of course
One Iraqi’s collateral damage

Pheonix get with the times. Iraqi mulitanbts are not fighting to defend Iraq. Iraq is a Democracy and the overwhelming majority of the people back the Democratic process, so grow up. The country has a lot of problems, most of which are fueled by the militants. The violence in Iraq comes from two main influences, foreign backed religious fanatics trying to turn Iraq into an Inslamic state, and the old guard sunni Sheiks, who by the way are turning on the al qaeda foreigners and negotiating with the government.

So get a new line for your rationalizing your anti Democratic views.

We withdrew from Vietnam.

Sometimes when you lose, you win.

Peace,

The US needs to get out but how and when is the million dollar question. (spell checked – Izzy?)

The U.S. needs to get out now and it’s a trillion dollar question.

Sometimes no Peace

for the longest time the iraqi factions lived in relative harmony

That is a joke right. What you mean is that for the longest time a clan of Sunni thugs, lead by Saddam ruled over the people, 60% were Shiites who had no say in their own country and 20% Kurds, murdered, forced assimilated. Besides all that though, they lived in relative harmony.

I gather that there once was a user named Izzy who didn’t use a spell checker and I remind people of him.

Ok.

When I read this trite crap that he types I like to pretend it’s 1989 and Izzy is telling us why it’s important for the USG to support/prop up Saddam.

“relative”

You do understand what that means dont you?

“I gather that there once a user named Izzy who didn’t use a spell checker and I remind people of him.”

And I take it you found a spellchecker?

When I read this trite crap that he types I like to pretend it’s 1989 and Izzy is telling us why it’s important for the USG to support/prop up Saddam.

Someone writes how things were so much better and how everybody got along better under Saddam. I point out the obvious lunacy of that claim, to which that is your response. Surely you can do better than that. Why not try and refute my claim and show how things were better for the people and social justice was better served under Saddam?

I have to say that this resorting to this story about how the US supported Saddam, is really not an argument that tends to show how things were better under Saddam. It is a cop out.

You’re focusing on the wrong part of the story, ace. The point I was making is that it matters not what misguided policies the USG engages in, as you’ll gladly cheerlead it along…rah rah.

The history of Iraq didn’t start with the US-puppet known as Saddam…

Abdul-Karim Qassim

General Qassim was one the most popular rulers of Iraq. Like many Iraqis, he disliked the socially conservative and pro-Western policies of the monarchy. On July 14, 1958, Qassim and his followers used troop movements planned by the government as an opportunity to seize military control of Baghdad and overthrew the monarchy. This movement was widely supported by the people and it still refered to as the revolution of the 14th of July.

Qassim assumed the post of the prime minister of the newly formed republic. He tried to steer Iraq through an era when pro-Arab nationalism was in it’s peak of power in the Arab world. He started serious attempts to develop the country and to improve its infrastructure. On 8th of February 1963 officers of the Baath Party overthrew his government and killed Qassim after a phony trial.

So this no name country invades the US and removes the Bush administration. They tell us that it is for Democracy and that we had been lied to by our government. That it wasn’t a ‘true’ democracy, while all the while bombing Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco and Austin…but this is to ‘help us’ create a real Democracy based on a ‘New’ constitution that they’ve written for everyone to follow. Now seriously, what American would go for that?

Don’t even answer that, cause you’d be lying.

So these no name countries invade Nazi Germany and remove Hitler and Nazis. They tell the Germans that it is for Democracy and that you had been lied to by your government. Nazi Germany was not a true Democracy, rather it was a fascist dictatorship, while all the while bombing Berlin, Dusseldorf and Hamburg, but this is to ‘help Germany’ create a real Democracy based on a ‘New’ constitution that a new German Constitutional Assembly will write. Now seriously, what German would go for that?

I wonder.

haha this is what i love about GNN, the insanity on both sides. One side claims the Sunni, Shiites and Kurds used to get along and the other, the other of course brings in Hitler analogies!

“Before the US got to Iraq it was sunshine and Lollipops for everyone!”

“YEAH WELL... Um… HITLER! HITLER!!! NAZIS!! BLAAARRRGGHH!!!”

_haha this is what i love about GNN, the insanity on both sides. One side claims the Sunni, Shiites and Kurds used to get along and the other, the other of course brings in Hitler analogies! _

Sorry about the Hitler analogy, Stalin would have been a better analogy. But really, except for the scale, there is not a whole lot of difference between Stalin and Hussein.

How about we take the fact that 2 million Iraqis have abandoned their homes post invasion as a comparison of life under Saddam during economic sanctions and the current occupation.

Peace,

How about we take the fact that 2 million Iraqis have abandoned their homes post invasion as a comparison of life under Saddam during economic sanctions and the current occupation.

How about we consider that you could not leave under Saddam and now you can do whatever you like.

How about we consider that terrorist insurgents are killing and kidnapping rampantly now in a desperate attempt to exploit the Iraqi government’s Democratic vulnerabilities.

How about we consider that you could not leave under Saddam and now you can do whatever you like.

You’re alleging Saddam secured the borders and didn’t allow emigration from Iraq? Cite please.

Saddam’s cooperation with the Oil for Food program of distribution of the basic necessities to his people during more than a decade of sanctions enabled Iraqis to remain in Iraq in spite of the U.N. economic sanctions.

How about we consider that terrorist insurgents are killing and kidnapping rampantly now in a desperate attempt to exploit the Iraqi government’s Democratic vulnerabilities.

How about we consider that the Iraqi insurgency is fighting to eject their occupiers and any person or group seen as collaborating with the occupiers or the central Iraqi government which is a creation of the occupation is now targeted.

Sometimes no Peace

How about we consider that the Iraqi insurgency is fighting to eject their occupiers and any person or group seen as collaborating with the occupiers or the central Iraqi government which is a creation of the occupation is now targeted.

Do you have a straight face when you say this stuff? I mean really, what kind of a person brought up in a free country takes the side of terrorists over a Democratic government backed by the majority and then actually advocating the killing of ‘collaberators’.

It is one thing to find fault in a government or a system that you believe is not making the right moves. And it is fine to criticize them because you think that you know better. It is quite another to back mass murdering Islamic terrorists trying to seize power just because it happens to validate your twisted view of the world.

“How about we consider that the Iraqi insurgency is fighting to eject their occupiers and any person or group seen as collaborating with the occupiers or the central Iraqi government which is a creation of the occupation is now targeted.”

Oh this is such bullshit. Neither the insurgents or the US army deserves to be in power over there. YOu think one group willing to bomb a street full of innocent people (both sides do this) is somehow better than the other?

Fuck the occupies and fuck the insurgents killing innocent civilians. Both deserve to be sent to fucking Gitmo

YOu think one group willing to bomb a street full of innocent people (both sides do this) is somehow better than the other?

By both sides you mean Shia and Sunni militants, then I agree. The Coalition doesn’t.

Gitmo is a construct of the US administration. You are a pawn and carefully positioned member of disinfo.

And that’s why no one ever takes you seriously.

No he meant Paris Hilton and the police. They are both sides of a stupid culture called America go and foad.

it won’t matter if the US has a presence as long as relations with the government is good.

uh yea actually it does, especially if you’re the big proponent of democracy you suggest you are and the elected gov of Iraq chooses to have you vacate the premises. Which appears to be a growing sentiment as we speak.

What is more important is what to do right now.

your overall rhetoric… beautifully constructed. Your selection of facts… rightfully conservative. Certainly the true conservative frowns upon focusing on the past too strongly, for instance the question of…. Why.

or … how you got yourself tangled up in the remarkable clusterfuck via your Prez, his crew and their brainiac ideas.

You mention democracy. Why even bring “democracy” up in the argument. It doesn’t belong here.

Democracy was never the justification(s) given for selling this war. It couldn’t have been sold it on that. Not with Powell at the UN, nor to the general American public. Btw, when did the US become the world’s democracy cop. They haven’t. The US never has (still doesn’t) care what system of government a country operates under. The US has (and continues) to do business with any number of countries, regimes, which are anything but wholly democratic. To the contrary the US has ( and continues to) meddle with, undermine, in hopes of toppling democratically elected governments, leaders thereof, the US considers not aligned with it’s aims and/or interests. At the same time, it see’s no sin in supporting regimes which are either autocratic, totalitarian or even tainted with communist elements so long as the US’s interests remain protected or at best uninterrupted.

In Iraq’s case, first it was Anthrax, WMD, and yellow cake. Toss in Saddam the tyrant supporting terrorism with ties to Al Qaeda. You already know the story. Of course once the WMD and axis of evil song and dance unraveled and came apart at the seams it had to be deep sixed out of sheer necessity so a new line of rhetorical bullshit could be distributed. Someone decided (memories, the short lived thing that they are) that the “word” democracy had a “nice ring” to it. Why bring up all that “nasty developer of WMD’s supporter of Osama Bin Laden bullshit”, considering how badly the shit sank like a lead balloon anyhoo.

I won’t bother you with troublesome terms or proper definitions as they apply to fascism, imperialism, totalitarianism or countries associated with socialist ideals, any of which the US deems perfectly good and fine territories from which to conduct their business from… Take Canada for instance, versus Venezuela. Iraq, versus Saudi Arabia. Those are simply the basic facts.

Because after all, it’s really business we’re talking about ain’t it ?

C’mon man, let’s pull down the fancy bullshit linguistic garbage like democracy and fascism. Democracy has no place in this discussion. Problem is, in removing the “democracy” argument out of the equation, you end up in an uncomfortable position in attempting to justify this catastrophe of a disaster. The same one your commander in chief will soon be leaving behind for others to deal with.

How about we simply get honest, call it what it is and say… It’s only business .... Suck it up.

Seriously dude.

Whether or not I agree with conducting one’s affairs throughout the world in this way or whether I feel it’s in our best interests in the long run, is inconsequential . You’d be coming from a place that’s at the very least.. factual. I might have to simply “shrug”, agree to disagree. You work your side of the street, I’ll work mine.

Whether or not the reader finds your shit insulting to one’s own intelligence is something of an aside. In attempting to sell such rhetorical bullshit to the so called “far left”, you automatically place yourself, by default, into the same camp that bought that line of crap, which makes you look rather dumb, not to mention naive, and gullible. (read: you’re acting the moron) Have some self respect my friend..

“What to do about it” is in fact a valid question. That said, if I were you, I’d be more concerned about the recklessness in which your current administration appears so endeared to in handling your affairs and your resources. Your labor forces…. essentially exported, to a country that is hardly what you’d call democratic. However, when it comes to China’s involvement with the genocide going on in Darfur for instance, it’s no biggie. Everyone’s too goddamn eager to do business with the Chinese regime, subsequently China gets a “free pass”. Hussein it appears had little, if anything in the way of WMD. Meanwhile North Korea happily builds it’s own nuke, keeping it’s citizenry hostage and in the fucking dark ages. Fucking bravo ! guys.

This war, is costing your citizens dearly. If nothing else it’s actually helped to foster and develop several of the newer methods we see implemented in the tactics of terrorism. You mention the sectarian violence and presence of Al Qaeda in Iraq…well duh. Now it exists. The level of terrorism we see today in Iraq supported by the likes of Al Queda wasn’t there prior to your fucking involvement. Hussein kept that shit at bay albeit at the expense of the Iraqi people. Today it’s still at the expense of the Iraqi people, except Hussein actually proved quite successful in something the US is showing themselves to be horribly inept at. While it’s nice the Iraqi people are able “to vote”, don’t give me this democracy bullshit. It was never about that.

Your dollar and housing market… is tanking. Your trade deficit with the freakin Chinese is through the roof and climbing. If you’re not careful, China will eventually own your sorry ass. Who’s fault will that be. Members inside your government have serious and legitimate concerns about this. Seems to me that a failed oil man, surrounded by those who’ve some experience sitting on the board of Imperial Oil and/or Halliburton…. a “good team” on the geopolitical scale does not make. How about you elect someone who is truly sound in that realm and really kick some ass. I can at least respect a job well done. Even ol Abe knew better. If your gonna be something, whatever it might be, at least be a good one. 

I agree with some of what you say,

I disagree on a few points.

The question of democracy for Iraq was involved in the planning from the beginning. There never was a plan to invade Iraq without establishing Democracy.

Al Qaeda never tried to get into Iraq prior to 2003. So saying thet he kept them at bay is somewhat obfuscating the point.

Democracy was never the justification(s) given for selling this war

The US is not in the nation building business. As bad as saddam was, imposing freedom, although good for the country in question is not the US’s job. But a bad dictatorship can be a supporting rationale if not the main reason.

“By both sides you mean Shia and Sunni militants, then I agree. The Coalition doesn’t.”

Right, they don’t drop bombs on streets filled with innocent people. Lets just not show any pictures of the bombed out streets all over the fucking country.

“Gitmo is a construct of the US administration. You are a pawn and carefully positioned member of disinfo.”

haha we already knew that, just ask lot08 I’m a Rightwing conservative plant paid for by organized crime! Atleast get original in your comments…

Right, they don’t drop bombs on streets filled with innocent people. Lets just not show any pictures of the bombed out streets all over the fucking country.

When the democratically elected government of Iraq, the sole representative of the Iraqi people tell us that we are bombing their civilians in the street, I will take note. Until then I only have the word of Militant insurgent and far left propaganda.

can i just comment on the caption?

withdrawal was never an option

the democratically elected government of Iraq = Puppet State